Doctoring the Truth
Welcome to Doctoring the Truth, a podcast where two dedicated audiologists dissect the world of healthcare gone rogue. Explore jaw-dropping stories of medical malfeasance, nefariousness, and shocking breaches of trust. The episodes provide deep dives that latch onto your curiosity and conscience. It's a podcast for truth-seekers craving true crime, clinical insights, and a dash of humor.
Doctoring the Truth
The Cook Who Killed: Typhoid Mary's Deadly Legacy
What happens when healthcare professionals face a critical pediatric emergency and systemic resistance simultaneously? Our episode opens with a gripping medical mishap submitted by a nurse who found themselves racing against time to save a 4-year-old hemorrhaging after a routine tonsillectomy. When the child began swallowing blood and showing signs of deterioration, this nurse's persistent advocacy ultimately proved life-saving, despite repeatedly being dismissed by other providers. The case highlights the vital importance of speaking up in healthcare settings and trusting clinical instincts—even when faced with opposition from those higher in the medical hierarchy.
We then journey back to the early 20th century to examine one of medical history's most fascinating figures: Mary Mallon, better known as "Typhoid Mary." Born in poverty in Ireland and later working as a cook for wealthy New York families, Mary became America's first identified healthy carrier of typhoid fever. Despite never feeling ill herself, she unwittingly spread the disease through her cooking, particularly her famous peach ice cream made with raw, unpasteurized ingredients. When sanitary engineer George Soper connected multiple typhoid outbreaks to Mary's employment history, she refused to believe she could be responsible, leading to a forced quarantine that would ultimately span 26 years of her life.
Have you ever wondered how you might react if your freedom was restricted for the greater good? Share your thoughts with us and subscribe to hear more medical stories that challenge our understanding of health, ethics, and human rights.
Wired (Sept. 23, 1869: Here Comes Typhoid Mary) provides a richly detailed narrative focusing on her forced quarantines, her return to cooking under an alias, the resulting outbreaks, and her eventual permanent isolation.
WIRED
Time (Refusing Quarantine: Why Typhoid Mary Did It) offers a thoughtful look into the tension between public health imperatives and individual rights, exploring Mallon's denial of her carrier status and the ethical dilemmas her case posed.
TIME
Gavi’s article, “The tragedy of Typhoid Mary,” emphasizes her confinement and how she was treated less like a patient and more like a public menace—inviting reflection on possible injustices in her treatment.
Gavi
The New
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Stay safe, and stay suspicious...trust, after all, is a delicate thing!
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Go Jenna.
Speaker 2:How are you? I'm over here. How are you?
Speaker 1:Yay Good, Are you enjoying the remnants of summer? Because I hate to say it, but I mean I don't want to be Debbie Downer here, but like school's starting soon.
Speaker 2:So today was the first day. I was like I have to practice getting up early and my friend is a teacher and so I had seen on her social media like that. She was like tomorrow I have to get up early and I was like I actually need to practice that too, because I should have started a long time ago and I haven't. So we both were like, okay, 545, and let's be having coffee by six. So we did that.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's early, Do you always get up?
Speaker 2:that early? Oh, I get up. I actually have to get up earlier than that when I do go to work because I live so far away from work.
Speaker 1:That is early, okay. How'd it go then, tired? We're past your bedtime now, it being almost seven o'clock yeah this is going to be about.
Speaker 2:I actually was pretty impressed with myself. I've really had a lot of energy.
Speaker 1:I'm proud of you.
Speaker 2:It was good. I am very tired now, but it was good. It was good. I'm proud of you.
Speaker 1:You got this. Thank you, you got this really.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it will be good to like get back in a routine and like see the kiddos. Obviously I love my job, so like looking forward to that, but I do think like the first week back is going to be a huge like slap of reality, of like here's a schedule but honestly, you're sporting a beautiful golden tan, so I'm jealous like I feel like I lost my tan the last few weeks because it's been so hot.
Speaker 2:I haven't oh well, apparently, but I guess it's still more than your fluorescent light bulb hospital life thank you so much for pointing that out, you cow that's the tan.
Speaker 1:I always sported too yeah, listen, I have a left arm driver's tan, because my arm that's on the like window, so when I'm driving is my left arm and so that turns really nice golden brown and then the rest of me is just pasty, pasty as heck you look good, I agree. Also, never again am I not going to get myself a pool, an above ground pool, for the summer, because that was my only excuse to go outside. So now I am super pasty white, except for my left arm.
Speaker 2:It's not happening again you didn't go sit in your little floaty chair thing no, you know it got slimy because, yeah, and tried to wash it off and then it's like, okay, I gotta go freaking, turn on the hose, fill it up.
Speaker 1:The water's ice cold yeah yeah, at least for with a pool, when I mean it is a lot of work for a pool, but I enjoyed the work because it's basically walking around in a circle creating a little like tornado of water to catch all the bugs and leaves and stuff and that was like half the thing I enjoyed about being in the pool. I had had like a purpose, okay next year she's getting a pool back.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Next year, girls, I'm getting my pool, so any whoozle. Do I have any corrections from last week?
Speaker 2:Probably not because it was worse. I was going to say I don't think so, but then I also am sitting here like I don't remember what my case was. So Hep C guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the guy that was addicted to fentanyl. Yeah, ass Asshat of a guy. No, I don't her up because we were fortunate enough to get a really in-depth medical mishap, which is not a funny, it's actually rather a very important but also kind of deep dive into what's wrong with our medical system. Medical mishap from a writer. So I'm going to start with that and then we can talk about something a little more lighthearted, although it's not terribly lighthearted, but it's a lot more lighthearted. Typhoid Mary. So for Typhoid Mary, our resources will be listed in the show notes, but I mean she's so ubiquitous, so I mean there's so many documentaries and podcasts and articles about her books, about her, that I felt kind of pressed upon to come up with some things that listeners may not have known about her. So let's hope I can reveal a couple of those things.
Speaker 2:I then reassured her that I know nothing about typhoid Mary, so hopefully, maybe someone else is in the same boat as me and this will be all new and exciting Not exciting, of course, but you know, yeah, it sounds like some things are a little funny. So, that's an important case.
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Speaker 1:a coffee, right Dude, more than $5. Yeah, so it's super affordable and a flavorful alternative to take out. With over 2 million meals served and featured in NBC, bon Appetit and BuzzFeed, the Cuban Club is the easiest way to enjoy restaurant-quality Indian food at home. Quality Indian food at home. Just for our listeners of our podcast, doctoring the Truth, you can get 30% off your order If you use the code STAYSUSPICIOUS at thecuminclubcom. That's S-T-A-Y-S-U-S-P-I-C-I-U-S. You like how I did that. It was like a little diphthong I-U-cumanclubcom. Okay, as I said, the resources for this show will be on our show notes and I don't really have any trigger warnings. But I'm going to go straight to the medical mishap. Let's do it so, yeah, so the title of this email was tonsillectomies can go bad and the email starts hello, amanda and Jenna, I'm a day one listener. Oh, yay, thank you. I appreciate all you both do to educate the public about medical issues and crimes. I'm writing to you about my experiences and prefer to be anonymous. We get that.
Speaker 2:And we got it. Thank you, yes, thank you.
Speaker 1:So from here on out, anonymous refers to themselves as the writer. So it starts out. The writer usually worked overnights, from seven at night to 730 in the morning, but this day, due to staffing, the writer went in at three o'clock in the afternoon. Upon arrival, a new patient immediately arrived by a private car and it says parentheses parents drove, end parentheses. The patient was a four-year-old male who was experiencing severe bouts of hematomesis, which means vomiting blood. Most commonly, when patients say they're vomiting blood, they're not actually vomiting blood. It's more often irritation on the back of their throat from persistent vomiting which can cause inflammation and some blood-tinged vomiting. But this patient proceeded at that moment to have a bout of emesis or vomiting, which was indeed wine-colored, which supported the statement from the parents that the patient was in fact vomiting blood, which supported the statement from the parents that the patient was in fact vomiting blood. The parents indicated to the writer that the patient was three days post-op bilateral tonsillectomy, which is a very common procedure. That was me saying that was a very common procedure.
Speaker 1:The writer then got the patient's chart pulled up and noticed that they had been to the emergency room already today, that same day, four times that day in fact this indicated to the writer the major problem occurred Either there was a significant lack of education to the parents about what to expect and when to return for medical treatment, or a severe disservice was done by the staff at the facility, or a severe disservice was done by the staff at the facility.
Speaker 1:The patient was not receiving the necessary care. The writer also noticed that the previous four times the patient had been seen was by the same provider for four times. The writer asked the patient's family if he could excuse himself to read over some of the documentation to determine what was going on, and that he would be at a computer with an eyesight of the patient so he could continue to observe them. The patient was stable, so the writer went to research the patient's history. The writer determined that the patient was post-op day three from a tonsillectomy. The patient experienced mild bleeding but early in the day the patient had eaten bread from Panera Bread, which we all know is. This is Jenna.
Speaker 1:It can be a little crunchy, yeah, a little bit crunchy crusty. So the Panera Bread appeared, which is that rustic crusty bread appeared to irritate the surgical sites, so the patient then presented to the emergency room due to significant bleeding resulting in vomiting. Unfortunately, the facility where the writer worked did not have current coverage for an ENT your nose and throat physician. The writer attempted to reach out to the provider who performed the surgery but was advised that there was no one on call. Since it was a weekend, the writer requested to speak to the head of the department. Since this was clearly an ENT emergency period, the head of ENT did contact the writer and the writer was advised that, since no one was on call, no one would be addressing the issue and that the writer should not attempt to contact them anymore. The writer then continued to look through the patient's chart and saw that the provider in the emergency room had reached out to an ENT physician at a larger facility owned by the same system. It was advised that they should see the patient as an outpatient. The writer also noted that the emergency room provider did reach out to the ENT at the parent facility and was advised each time that it was not an emergency and there was nothing that needed to be done at this time. The writer went on to talk to the patient and the family again and perform basic care, as in putting in an IV fluid resuscitation, offering anti-emetics and pain control. The writer clarified all the information with the family and confirmed that this was accurate. The provider then arrived at the bedside and the writer, the nurse and the doctor conversed with the patient's parents. It was quickly determined at this point they would need to transport the patient directly to the parent facility because it had been approximately 30 minutes since the writer entered the room to perform care and talk with the patient's family. The patient was no longer heaving or vomiting, so that was an improvement period. The writer did, however, notice that the child slash patient seemed more lethargic and pale. This was determined to be a result of the combination of blood loss and the excitement from the day by parents, providers and the writer to be of no significance. The parent facility accepted the patient and staff awaited ambulance transport and staff awaited ambulance transport.
Speaker 1:The writer returned to check on the patient 10 minutes later. The patient still appeared lethargic, but not more so than previously. The patient maintained their oxygen saturation and didn't vomit anymore. Nor did there appear to be any new bleeding. And then the email says parentheses of note the patient was determined by the writer to have between a class 3 or class 4 in the Malampati scale, which means that tonsils are not able to be visualized when looking in the throat end parentheses.
Speaker 1:So the writer spoke with the parents, who felt that the patient was doing okay. But the parents were obviously concerned about the patient, so they spent about 10 minutes speaking with the parents until the parents felt better. The writer did notice an odor of blood and by close observation the writer noticed the patient appeared to be swallowing. This led the writer to believe the patient was still bleeding, it was just not being visualized. So the writer didn't want to alarm the parents and went to speak immediately to the provider, who stated that they would look. They returned and stated oh well, it doesn't appear to be bleeding currently. So the writer made a mental note to monitor the patient even more closely than already had been done.
Speaker 1:Because of what the writer felt were clear signs of decompensation, the writer returned to the room to check on the patient and infused some more fluid. Approximately 10 minutes later the writer again noticed a strong odor of blood and again it was noted that the patient appeared to be swallowing. The writer inquired at this time whether the parents felt that the patient was exhibiting those signs as well, and the patient's mother did report swallowing, but the provider said it's likely leaking a bit, not to be concerned. The writer, upon completing tasks and offering the patient some stickers, went to the provider to again express their extreme concern that the patient was bleeding more than previously thought. The provider advised that the parent facilities, ear, nose and throat department had already accepted them and there was nothing more to be done. Roughly seven minutes passed and the writer went to check on the patient again. And again the writer noticed swallowing and the overwhelming smell of blood. I mean, can you imagine?
Speaker 2:So it's that metallic smell right, yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I imagine, yeah.
Speaker 1:So the writer went to speak to the provider again and stated that it was necessary to do some other sort of intervention. I mean, we're supposed to cultivate it this is me speaking outside of the email but we're supposed to cultivate a culture of safety where people feel safe to speak up, regardless of their role, and have, you know, their concerns addressed at least right.
Speaker 2:So well done for this, so I imagine this person is just feeling like they're screaming in a brick wall at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, after speaking with the provider. The provider agreed with the assessment of the writer, finally, which the writer is the primary nurse. So it was determined that the provider agreed with the assessment of the writer, finally, which the writer is the primary nurse. So it was determined that the best course of action would be to transport the patient via air transport or helicopter versus ground transport. So the writer went to inform the patient's family and reassure the parents that this was a good thing. Writer also reassured the patient that it would get to fly in the clouds like birds, to which the patient smiled Sounds like such a good nurse. The helicopter was launched and estimated to be 40 minutes to touchdown. The rider continued to check on the patient regularly and continued to alert the provider to bleeding, to which the provider thanked the rider, and continued to wait until the helicopter arrived. 33 later, the writer was informed that the helicopter was diverted to the field because there was another child that needed help who had been run over by a large farm appliance. Oh my god jesus. The writer went to inform the patient's parents about what happened and advised that another helicopter had been launched, but this was an hour and 30 minutes away. This had been three minutes since the last time the writer checked on the patient. The writer immediately noticed that while the patient was lethargic, they were now passing out. The writer immediately began to assess the patient and it was apparent the patient seemed to be slightly more pale and altered and confused. The writer then had a patient care tech bring a forehead O2 device to help prevent the client from removing the device and their saturations were found to be 87%, which is low but suspicious that the patient's symptoms did not support the current saturations low, but suspicious that the patient's symptoms did not support the current saturations. The writer then spoke with parents of the patient and stated that the writer would once again go to the provider and advocate heavily for the patient's care. The writer spoke to the provider and the provider and writer went into the room. The provider talked to the parents and advised at this time it would probably be best to intubate. The patient's parents agreed and it was decided that standard intubation which intubation not being done due to respiratory distress or failure or trauma or another significant emergency was a big deal. So the provider then left the room to get the supplies.
Speaker 1:The patient's mother then stated to the writer he's not okay. The writer responded to the patient's mother I know he isn't, I'm fighting for him At this moment. The patient sat up and looked at the writer with an expression the writer would describe as fear and then projectile vomited a significant volume of merlot-colored blood, about 400 milliliters, and then passed out in the writer's arm. The patient was now suddenly white, as opposed to pale like white as a piece of paper, and completely hypotonic. The writer immediately advised the mother to hit the staph assist button on the wall and drop the bed down into a lying position. While attempting to find a pulse, the writer ripped the patient's shirt off, applied cardiac monitoring patches and called for an ECG.
Speaker 1:At this point, other staff started to arrive and the rider instructed the RN to grab the pediatric crash cart and another to grab the pediatric airway cart. The rider then advised a patient care technician to grab as many suction canisters as they could get a hold of. The writer then instructed another patient care tech to grab all of the NG and respiratory suction tubing they could find for pediatric patients and a blood pressure cuff that was appropriate for the size of the child. The patient's heart rate was now found to be 160 and climbing to a steady pace the patient's 160 and climbing to a steady pace. The patient's oxygen saturations were also dropping at a steady rate and with it currently being 73%. The patient's blood pressure was found to be 37 systolic and 13 diastolic. This was so low, but it must be taken into account.
Speaker 1:The patient was a four-year-old child who was small for his age. The patient stopped breathing at this point. The writer immediately ordered someone to grab the pediatric bag from the crash cart. But the crash cart, however, only had an infant bag. So a provider grabbed the bag and started to resuscitate the patient at 60 to 70 times a minute to compensate for the lack of volume within the small bag. Respiratory therapy was called at this point by the staff to assist alarm and separately four times in the emergency department was advised, but they said they were busy and would respond when they were done. The writer then pushed the code blue button to indicate an emergency so that the respiratory therapists and pharmacists would need to react per protocol.
Speaker 1:The writer placed two additional large-bore IVs A 20-gauge was the largest the patient's vein could support and started the patient on rapid fluid bolus. The writer then held the patient as the provider intubated. The writer pushed down on the patient's tongue to visualize the tonsilsils and it was immediately apparent that this was a gross hemorrhage situation. The writer advised another nurse to call the blood bank and prepare supplies for the rapid transfusion protocol of O negative blood type until type and screen could be determined. The respiratory therapist then arrived and observed for several minutes and stated well, looks like everything's under control, and then excused themselves from the patient's room.
Speaker 1:The writer then asked another person please get them suctioning supplies. This instant the individual's return was supplies. The writer began to suction large volumes of blood from the patient's throat. It was apparent that the patient also had a large volume of blood in his stomach and lungs. The writer also noted that the patient had an asymmetrical chest rise. They immediately reported this to the provider who advised the writer that they disagreed. The writer proceeded to listen and then advised the endotracheal tube was likely not in the proper place because no air movement could be heard on the left side At this point. Portable x-ray arrived to verify the tube placement. The writer advised that they would hold the patient and apply lead to them for protection against radiation. I'm sorry, apply a lead. Maybe A lead, a lead? Is it a lead, a lead? Okay, I'm thinking of that lead vest.
Speaker 2:A lead. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Lead vest.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I just heard my husband cough in the living room and I was like I hope you know to cut that out.
Speaker 1:So if anyone hears that, siri, Upon completion of the x-ray it was immediately apparent that the patient was right main stem intubated and that the patient now had a left side pneumothorax. The tube was quickly pulled back and confirmed to be at the carina, which helped significantly with the oxygenation problem. It was determined this was likely a tonsillar arterial bleed. The general and trauma surgeon were both consulted and advised they could not perform any surgical interventions on the patient. The writer advised the nurse to call the patient's ear, nose and throat physician and they were advised that, since the patient was in an emergency room, that we should be able to handle the situation.
Speaker 1:Another provider assisted by soaking sterile gauze in tranexamic acid and attempted to directly pack the patient's directly now very apparent bleeding open wounds where the tonsils were. This had limited success because of the location, the size of the patient's mouth being a small 40-year-old child and the amount of bleeding that was happening. At the same time the blood arrived and the patient's heart rate was around 209 beats per minute. Oh, my goodness. The patient was given two units of blood through manual pressure infusion by squeezing blood bags with your hands to force the blood in as fast as possible, and then an infusion was set. The rate of the infusion was precisely set to be as close to the rate of bleeding as possible. The risk was that raising blood pressure too much or even to normal would result in further damage and further hemorrhage, which could ultimately result in the patient's death. But too little would result in a deficit and eventually a loss of life due to blood volume loss. I can't imagine being in this situation, Can you, oh my?
Speaker 2:goodness no.
Speaker 1:The writer requested an order to apply small doses of PRN phenylephrine as necessary for blood pressure maintenance, which was granted.
Speaker 1:The phenylephrine comes in a dose of 100 micrograms per milliliter, with a total syringe of 1 milligram to 10 milliliters. The dose that was recommended to give the patient at intervals was 0.1 milliliters, which would be 10 micrograms of phenylephrine. The writer immediately asked the pharmacist to put this in a different syringe. The provider stated not to worry, just give 0.1 milliliters. Another nurse stated it would be incredibly unsafe to the ease at which a much larger dose could be given and the phenylephrine would not be administered unless it was in a one milliliter syringe. So this was done and a proper dose was administered. Since the patient was non-responsive, there were no meds given before intubation the writer requested that the patient be given a dose of something because the patient was in pain that one can still feel pain when unconscious and then all present could visualize that the patient was not ventilating well, in other words they were bucking the ventilator and that sedation at this point was required. The provider then agreed and ordered 2.5 milligrams of Versed to be administered. The writer did administer said medication and the patient did cooperate better with the ventilator at that point.
Speaker 1:The writer then placed the orogastric tube and hooked it to suction, in which immediately large volumes of blood were suctioned out At 500 milliliters. However, the suction stopped. The writer attempted various methods to clear but ultimately made the decision to remove the tube and place a new one. Upon removal it was apparent what the problem was. The tube was clogged with large blood clots. After the third clot, the writer made the decision not to replace. Instead, they took a tube for deep respiratory suctioning and fed the said tube into the patient's stomach. The writer then could suction and manually pull out the clots and repeat decompressing the abdomen. At this point the canister was switched because it was full of 900 milliliters of blood.
Speaker 1:The writer then requested the provider put in an order for additional Versed. The provider advised that, per the patient's electronic medical records, they had already received the dose seven minutes ago. The writer stated the patient was still in pain, as apparent by them crying, and at this point it was just cruel not to treat the pain in some way. The provider stated they didn't want to harm the patient and no order would be given. The writer reminded the provider that the patient was fully intubated, that even large doses of midazolam or ketamine would cause no ill effects and no loss of airway, since a tube was already there to maintain the airway, and that both the midazolam and ketamine have continuously been proven not to lower blood pressure, and in fact ketamine can slightly raise blood pressure.
Speaker 1:The writer also reminded the provider that propofol, while a sedative, does in no way treat pain and has been commonly shown that patients under sedation with propofol only still feel pain. The ethics of such being argued that if the patient is sedated and doesn't remember, does it count as being in pain or still in question. But the writer didn't want the patient or the patient's parents to have any more trauma. I mean, he's four after all. It was agreed then and an order was placed for ketamine and midazolam infusion. At this point the helicopter did arrive and the patient was transported to the parent facility and immediately taken to surgery. They were in surgery for 32 minutes. During that time their tonsils were cauterized, stopped the bleeding and a total of 600 milliliters of blood products were evacuated from the abdomen and the lungs. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:Wow, can you even imagine if that was your day at work?
Speaker 1:I mean, this makes my worst day seem like. Yeah, walking the park, Not even just like a day at work.
Speaker 2:This is like one part of your work day, right? We love a nurse.
Speaker 1:We do love a nurse, but also a feisty nurse. That's like I don't care who I'm standing up to. I am going to speak my truth for the patient's best interest. That's what we need. Yeah for sure, and I know that there seemed to be a bit of resistance initially, but I do like the fact that you know the physicians in this story not story this case eventually did pay attention. They could see reason and and they weren't.
Speaker 2:Their egos weren't above, over and above the safety of the patient ultimately although it does kind of kill me that the head of the ent department or whatever was like yeah, no, I said no, so stop calling, which I'm. I guess if there's no coverage and no one's on call, then there's nothing you can do about that. But if it's clearly an ENT emergency, like if I was that person, I'd be like feel personally responsible if I didn't go in. But that sucks and like, no, there's no work life balance.
Speaker 1:So, like I get it, because the organization isn't hiring enough of them, right, yeah, how could you, how could you, how would your conscience allow that to happen? But I also wonder if they get a lot of false alarms like people going oh, I'm sure you're like it's so rare.
Speaker 1:You know that people have these hemorrhages and I know one of our ENTs where I work. He was phrasing his tonsil surgeries in a different way and I was like what is this? And he's like, oh well, basically he doesn't take them out, he just scrapes them down because there's a lot less risk of hemorrhage. He goes hemorrhages are really rare but like, why even do that? So you can do like these I forget what it's called, I should have looked it up but like you can do like these little tonsil scrapes where you don't take the whole tonsil out, and I think that's amazing. That's what's nice about. You know, we have some younger, like recent grads, like they're coming with all the fresh stuff, you know, the fresh knowledge. That's really cool but, yeah, scary.
Speaker 2:I mean that's really cool, so but, yeah, scary. I mean yeah, oh, well done. Also, I happen to know like where both these facilities are, just because I know the writer and I'm just like, by the time the damn helicopter got redirected to a different emergency and the estimated time that it would be till the helicopter got there, plus the initial eta of when it would get there, it's like Jesus Christ, I could have driven there and back in that amount of time.
Speaker 1:I know oh my God For that family too who are just like this is our child, like I get that another child needed help, but like how hard that must be.
Speaker 2:Watching your child go through that and like how child be yeah, more hurt than are they gonna die? Because, yeah, my goodness but in, in, I'm thinking too, like with my comment of, like I could have driven there and back by now, but like, thank god that didn't happen to your child while you were transporting in your private car. And, oh my god, stock the fucking carts with the appropriate stuff, right?
Speaker 1:yes, stock your carts. And also, god bless nurses. Can I just say, shout out to my sister who's a nurse. Shout out to this writer, anonymous thank you for writing in like this is a really rare inside glimpse of, because, you know, obviously in our professional lives we have have to, you know, gloss up the good and limit the bad, but just to know what it's like like behind the scenes. It's like a backdoor glimpse at what actually is happening, and it took this writer a lot of strength and a lot of courage to stand up, and a lot of knowledge too. A lot of courage to stand up and a lot of knowledge too, to stand up to yeah, without research about these medications to the provider.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, actually research, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm glad that the providers weren't such God complex heroes that they couldn't learn from these situations, because, yeah, and I'm also thinking too like Sorry, I interrupted, no, go no.
Speaker 2:Learn from these situations because yeah. And I'm also thinking too like sorry, I interrupted, no. I'm thinking too like the er is always busy because most often it's misused, right like you don't really need to go to the er, um. And so then thinking like, oh, over there and cube four, this lady's gonna be so pissed. I haven't checked on her yet, but it's like. This is what I'm doing in the other room like this. This is an actual emergency.
Speaker 1:I always feel guilty if I end up in the OR because I'm like what if somebody was a real problem?
Speaker 2:I only go there like that's why you just got to wait longer.
Speaker 1:I know, I know I went in for my spider bite because there wasn't an urgent care and they told you it was good you went in. Yeah, I know, but I was on lunch and I was like, if I can just sneak up there, but I hate to take up, which also speaks to like hospital culture.
Speaker 2:Right like I can't take off work because these patients are going to get in, so on my lunch I'll try and get this looked at that's not good either my cellulite is looked at before my leg has to get amputated.
Speaker 1:Do you know that it's like scarred now, but the whole top of my foot is so painful still.
Speaker 2:Isn't that weird, that damn spider That'll teach me to garden, anyway, for your six raspberries.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anyway, thank you, dear nurse friend, and if you know them personally, Amanda, please tell them. Thank you for sharing. That's very eye-opening and they're rare privilege to be able to see behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:You know, should I do our little chart note now? I'm like we're already at 37 minutes. Should we even do a chart note? Maybe not. I think let's a chart note, Maybe not. I think let's save it for your next one Just get into Mary, let's save it.
Speaker 1:Let's get into Mary, it looks like you have part of your case done for next time. What is the chart note? Yeah, 1869, ireland, let's go there. Old timey, yes, yes. Mary Mellon was born in Cookstown, country Tyrone. This was one of the poorest regions of Ireland. Life in County Tyrone and the years that Mary spent growing up there were harsh, were harsh. Every year. There would have been times of famine and she would have grown up eating primarily potatoes, which I don't want to flippantly say it's not a bad thing, but like they probably don't have sour cream chives.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, yeah, they're not like loaded mashers, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:There's probably not bacon bits on these potatoes. So she immigrated to America in 1883 alone as a teenager. How brave is that, can you imagine? No, she moved in with her aunt and uncle in New York City and then they died. So yeah, she described herself later as alone in America.
Speaker 1:Mary worked her way up from the depths of laundry as a seamstress cleaning, hauling and performing all the usual lower echelon tasks. At some point she learned how to cook well and ended up being able to run a kitchen. She began to be hired again and again by good families because skilled cooks were in high demand and the cook was on the highest rung of the pecking order amongst servants. So picture this it's a sweltering August afternoon in 1906. The servants in the sprawling Long Island Long Island summer home of the Warren family are wilting in the heat. But in the kitchen, mary Mallon, the new cook, is cool as a cucumber. She's making her specialty peach ice cream. Now here's the thing In 1906, making ice cream meant no cooking whatsoever.
Speaker 1:You turned raw cream, sugar and fruit together over ice. There was no pasteurization, no heat to kill bacteria, which means that whatever was in Mary's hands was going straight into those peaches. Gross Guests rave. This is the best peach ice cream we've ever had, mary. She smiles quietly proud, but within days half the household is violently ill. Public health investigators later realized that this one dessert, this light, summery and just sweet enough to mask its microbial hitchhikers, might have been her deadliest dish of all. In this luxurious vacation home in Oyster Bay, long Island, the youngest girl in the Warren family, named Margaret, lay gravely ill. Her father, charles Warren, was the Vanderbilt's family banker. So Margaret had the best care the money could buy, but there was no cure. All anyone could do to help her was attempt to bring her fever under control. But then six more members of the family fell ill After Margaret two maids became ill, then the mother, another daughter and finally the gardener. Charles was confounded and grief-stricken. How could a disease that only affects poor people, the slums, affect his wealthy?
Speaker 2:family.
Speaker 1:In such an exclusive seaside resort. No less, Even Teddy Roosevelt was known to summer there.
Speaker 2:Well, by God, I bet they just have a little fence up. No germs here, I know.
Speaker 1:At the turn of the 20th century, the most densely populated neighborhood in the world was New York City's Lower East Side. It was even more crowded than Calcutta, india, with few connections to city water or sewers, and the residents lacked access to basic sanitation. Infectious diseases like smallpox, diphtheria, tuberculosis and typhoid fever killed thousands of people every year. In New York City alone, there was an estimated 4,000 cases of typhoid fever every year. The symptoms of typhoid are severe and include headaches, diarrhea and high fevers which often lead to delirium. Since antibiotics had yet to be invented, 10% of people who contracted typhoid back then would die from the disease. Disease Louis Pasteur, 27th of December 1822 to 28th of September 1895, was a French chemist, pharmacist and microbiologist renowned for his discoveries of the principles of vaccination, microbial fermentation and pasteurization, the last of which was named after him. His chemistry research led to remarkable breakthroughs in understanding the causes and prevention of diseases, laying the foundations of hygiene, public health and much of modern medicine. Pasteur's works are credited with saving millions of lives through the development of vaccines for rabies and anthrax.
Speaker 1:I have to giggle because I just finished. I'm re-watching the Office like binging that in the background while I do stuff. Every couple of years, I'll redo it again. And there's this whole episode. Do you watch the Office? Not like you? No, okay. Well, there's a whole episode on like rabies. Dwight trapped Meredith's head in a bag with a bat. She got bitten.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God, and so like then when Michael Scott ran her over with his car he was like, well, it's a good thing she went to the hospital, because she never went to the hospital for rabies and she had to get her rabies vaccines. And then they did a whole like walk for the rabies cure, but there's already a cure for rabies. So anyway, it was just very timely because it happened at the same time I was researching this, anyway. So yeah, pasteur he was credited for the development of vaccines for rabies and anthrax. Pasteur he was credited for the development of vaccines for rabies and anthrax. He's regarded as one of the founders of modern bacteriology and has been honored as the father of bacteriology and the father of microbiology. Pasteur is credited with proving that typhoid fever was caused by salmonella and the typhi bacteria grow in the intestinal tract where they're shed in the feces. So this was an exciting time for science the concept that tiny microbes that were visible only under a microscope were yet responsible for such tangible and devastating diseases. It was mind-blowing at the time.
Speaker 1:So 1906, oyster Bay outbreak Six people are sick in a summer home. Cue the wild witch hunt. Who was the dirty scoundrel who brought blight upon such a privileged place? Could it be the lady on the beach selling shellfish? Was it bad dairy from the local farm by contaminated food or drink? Investigators began by inspecting the plumbing in the house. They added dye to the toilet to determine if it contaminated the drinking water, and this was mind-blowing to me. Can you imagine how horrifying that would be if you see that you put dye in your bathroom and it came out of the tap that you drink water from? So I'm not going to lie, I did try this. Oh my God, with food coloring, I mean, one can't be too sure. I put food dye in the toilet bowl and then flushed a few times and then ran upstairs to check my drinking faucet. I mean, I do have a filter, but I can't. It was clear. It was clear, we're all good.
Speaker 1:So, happily, the Oyster Bay victims' health improved, but doubt and fear were rampant, not to mention that the family who owned the house that the Warrens rented from were concerned that they wouldn't be able to rent their home out again because they were basically famous for being in the typhoid house. So, especially since that was the only place that the typhoid had been contracted, there were nobody else in that beachfront community that had actually contracted the disease. So enter George Soper, a 37-year-old freelance sanitary engineer. I mean, how sexy is that? Don't you want to just date him right away? Wow, he's a sanitary engineer.
Speaker 1:He started his investigation by reviewing the results of the previous investigation. He was eager to figure out how to trace the disease outbreak and better understand how diseases like typhoid were being spread, since the prior investigation had been fairly thorough but yet fruitless, he began questioning the people of the Warren household more thoroughly. He asked them if there was anyone he hadn't yet spoken to in the household. And then the staff remembered a cook who had been employed during this season but no longer worked there. Semper knew that it takes up to three weeks after exposure to become ill with the disease, so this was the incubation period. That was his first clue. The family had hired a cook on August 4th, which was three weeks before the family became sick. It stood to reason that the person who brought the typhoid bacillus into the house came from them Sober, figured out that the bacteria got into the person's, got onto the person's hands from the bathroom and then onto the food. Particularly, I know right, particularly wash your hands people particularly uncooked food, so I don't know.
Speaker 1:Ice cream with fresh peaches, can you imagine? She's like mulching these peaches with her derby hyphoid hands, oh god. And then putting it in unpasteurized milk and letting it sit out. Boy, oh boy, oh boy. It's amazing these people didn't die, but anyway. So he traces the illness to Mary Mallon and sets out to find her. The employment agency that placed her with the Hortons didn't know where she was, but they directed her him to some of the previous places that had employed her.
Speaker 1:Soper wasn't ready for what he discovered upon reaching out to those families. Over a 10-year period she worked for eight families. Six of these families had epidemics of typhoid. But how is this possible? Had Mary been spreading typhoid bacteria for years without ever appearing to be sick? Because, remember, they don't know that you can be a carrier without being ill. So Soper remembered reading a paper written four years before that by German scientist Robert Koch. Koch found a baker who wasn't ill but who spread typhoid germs. This was a healthy carrier of the disease. Could this be the same case with Mary Mallon? Soper felt that he was onto something cutting edge. If he were right, the cook would be the first American identified as a healthy carrier of typhoid fever. This would be a significant discovery and make Soper famous. Soper was fascinated and excited. He saw this as an opportunity to be the detective to solve this significant scientific puzzle. To prove his case, soper needed blood samples from the cook.
Speaker 1:On March 19, 2007, he learned that Mary was working for a family on Park Avenue. Here was his chance. Typhoid had already taken residence in a chambermaid in the household who had just been taken to the hospital. The family's only child was ill and in critical condition. Mary was helping to nurse the girl.
Speaker 1:Later Soper recounted his meeting with Mary Mallon for the first time. My name is Dr George Soper. I've been looking for you for quite a while. I was hired to track you down. To track me down, asked Mary. Yes, miss Mallon, and it appears you're the unwilling cause of the typhoid fever outbreak at Oyster Bay last year. I must get specimens from you of your urine, feces and blood to confirm my suspicion. Mary replied I have never been sick. A day in my life I've never had typhoid. I have never been sick a day in my life I've never had typhoid. Miss Mallon, you contain within your body typhoid fever germs. When you visit the bathroom. These germs can transfer to your fingers and then transmit them to the food. Barry replied Are you suggesting that I don't wash my hands?
Speaker 1:Rude Soap reclaims that the meeting ended poorly when Mary reached down, picked up a meat fork and threatened to stab him with it. She showed a bit of her Irish temper and that's what Soper thought, was it? He thought well, it was only a mild request. It was a reasonable scientific request, but it was seen by Mary's exact opposite. Later she went on to say that Soper didn't mention the families she'd worked for who didn't contract typhoid. Nor did he mention the family with whom she frequently lived with in the Bronx when she was out of work and shared a room with the children, and nobody came down with typhoid there.
Speaker 1:Mary Mallon had no reason to believe that she could have transmitted typhoid fever to anyone. The concept that if you're sick with a particular disease, you can pass it on to someone else was new at the time. Why would you believe, all of a sudden, a group of white men scientists telling you that invisible germs that you can't even see, that you've never even heard of, are causing diseases that you have seen for decades and decades? Like most people of her time, mary didn't understand how diseases were caused and transmitted.
Speaker 1:In the 19th century there was a stigma that disease somehow came from filth, and filth was seen as a moral reflection of one's community. The filthier your community, the more likely it is that it will create miasmas. People thought that illness came from mysterious sewer gases called miasma. Miasmas were like evil spirits and thought to be concentrated in the tenements overflowing with immigrants. With the population doubling every decade, city services were unable to cope. Imagine this is a city of 150,000 to 200,000 horses that were being used for the population's primary source of transportation at the time. Basic public health information shows that each horse gives off about 25 pounds of manure a day. So if you multiply that by 200,000 horses, 365 days a year, during a period in which the city may or may not be able to pick up that manure, can you imagine how filthy and stinky New York City was. Gross, filthy and stinky New York.
Speaker 2:City was.
Speaker 1:Gross. Oh. Add to that the uncollected garbage, overflowing sewage and conditions that became even more unbearable and rife with disease. In 1895, the city established a department of sanitation, citing the phrase cleanliness is next to godliness. They recruited an army of street cleaners that were known as the White Wings. These guys would parade down Fifth Avenue in an almost military-like exercise, and this was the time when George Soper found himself on the cutting edge of a new science.
Speaker 1:Utilizing his background in sanitary science, ever emboldened by the prospect of imminent fame and the public's belief in endorsement of bacteriology, soper continued his investigation of mary mellon. He discovered that mary was spending her evenings at a rooming house on third avenue below 33rd street with a disreputable looking man named breyhoff. Breyhoff had a room on the top floor and soper's sources shared that mary would often take him food. As he kept to his room during the day, breyhoff spent his days at the local saloon on the corner and Soper befriended him there. Eventually, this man took him to see his room. Soper described it as horrifyingly squalid, infected, an evil apartment with a menacing mangy looking, probably dangerous dog. The way he tells it. It's evident like classism is at play here. Although he believed in the science of bacteriology. He also believed that immigrants were a source of infection and danger, something we can relate to in this political day and age. Unfortunately, eventually, soper was able to get Breithoff to tell him when Mary would be visiting the apartment next.
Speaker 1:Soper alone didn't have the authority to force Mary to cooperate with his requests. So then enter Dr Herman Biggs, new York City's health commissioner. Biggs was committed to wiping out disease, using scientific tools to promote and protect public health. He gave workers the right to march into tenements to vaccinate people and confine the infected to their houses. Can you imagine if that happened during COVID? Oh my God. Like public health officials marching in your house to vaccinate you against your will. Like my goodness. He encouraged the use of force to quarantine those who wouldn't comply. So this was the power that they felt was needed to confront Mary Mallon. Dr Herman Biggs is the reason she was taken into custody the first time and that her specimens were taken against her will.
Speaker 1:Sopranos' assistant confronted Mary one night, insisting that she provide samples of her body fluids. He assured her that he did not think her transmission of the disease was intentional, but that it was her moral and public responsibility to provide her samples. Mary understandably objected and protested. She said I nursed those people who were sick in those households. I never had typhoid, so how can I give it to them? They insisted that she come along with them. And again she objected, apparently swearing and chasing Soper with a carving fork, again before fleeing. They literally had to chase her down on foot to catch her, and then she was taken to Willard Parker Hospital, an infectious disease facility for people with low income. She was quarantined on North Brother Island for three years. Lab scientists took her samples and placed them in an incubator to see what bacteria would grow, took her samples and placed them in an incubator to see what bacteria would grow, and they grew typhoid bacilli.
Speaker 1:George Soper was gratified to know that his suspicions were correct and that she was an asymptomatic carrier of typhoid fever. And now he had proof. In most cases of typhoid fever, the body is engaged in a microbial battle where the bacteria and the immune system are at war, and as the bacteria prevail the patient dies. But in the case of healthy carriers, there's no clear winner. The immune system protects the body from infection, but still bacteria continue to live within the body without causing symptoms and remain as contagious as someone who is symptomatic with the disease.
Speaker 1:So Soper was eager to learn more. When was she exposed to typhoid? How often did she pass it on? Of course she didn't want to speak to him, but he tried to reason with her and offered to get her out of there if she would only just cooperate with him and answer his questions. He even offered to write about her case and give her all the profits. She turned down the deal.
Speaker 1:So now health officials were left in a quandary. What did they do with her? I mean, they can't let her return to cooking. So they sent her to a quarantine island no trial, no representation, no due process, just plucked off the street and planted in a plague island for as long as the government saw fit. North Brother Island sits in the East River, a few hundred yards offshore from the South Bronx. Most patients there were sick with TB at the time. Needless to say, it was a scary place to go, and Mary spent three whole years there. She was confined to a small cottage on the island and I'm sure she felt that this was a form of cruel imprisonment. She later described her experiences as when I came here I was so nervous I was almost prostrated with grief and trouble. My eyes began to twitch and my left eye became paralyzed and would not move. It remained in this condition for six months.
Speaker 1:Some public health officials believe that her quarantine was unjustified. Dr Milton Rossino, director of the National Hygienic Laboratory in Washington, and other prominent scientists objected to her incarceration. They were aware of the National Hygienic Laboratory in Washington, and other prominent scientists objected to her incarceration. They were aware of the dangers posed by an asymptomatic carrier. Yet they maintained that all that was needed to afford Mary her civil liberties was to retrain her for a different line of work or she wouldn't be a danger to anyone.
Speaker 1:It was not pill battle, as the Department of Health was determined not to let her go, but instead wanted to try and cure her with experimental drugs and procedures. Some of the medications were dangerous and Mary purported they would have killed her if she continued to take them. Health officials told Mary that removing her gallbladder would cure her. They assured her that they'd had the best surgeon operate on her. Mary refused, claiming that there was had the best surgeon operate on her. Mary refused, claiming that there was nothing wrong with her gallbladder, as if you'd know, but anyway, as if they'd know If she had undergone the surgery, there was a chance she might have survived, but the rates of infection were higher there.
Speaker 1:So Mary's kept on North Brother Island and waged a steady battle by writing letter after letter to Biggs and Soper begging for her freedom. Why should I be banished like a leper and compelled to live in solitary confinement A few years of my life and I will be insane? During her quarantine on North Brother Island, boaters in the East River sometimes tried to glimpse the most dangerous woman in America. She was aware of her notoriety and reportedly resented being gawked at like a zoo exhibit. Some papers depicted her with skulls, floating in frying pans or wearing an apron patterned with crossbones. She became such a cultural icon of contagion that typhoid Mary is now a permanent phrase in English for anyone who spreads trouble or disease is now a permanent phrase in English for anyone who spreads trouble or disease. Two years pass and Mary's desperate to regain her freedom, stating as there is God in heaven, I will get justice somehow sometime.
Speaker 1:In June 1909, mary and a young Irish lawyer named George O'Neill filed suit in the New York Supreme Court demanding her release. Her argument was straightforward I have never been sick. Therefore, I can't transmit sickness to anyone else. I've never gotten my day in court. There's been no due process. A few days later, publisher William Randolph Hearst tells Mary's story in his New York newspapers. This time her identity is revealed, but she earns the unfortunate moniker of Typhoid Mary. The story included an article by William Park, head of the city's bacteriological lab. He wrote that new screening procedures uncovered at least 50 healthy carriers of typhoid fever, and yet only Mary was in quarantine. He wanted to say that the other 49 are mingling with people in New York was in quarantine. He wanted to say that the other 49 are mingling with people in New York. Since Mary only transmitted typhoid when she cooked her people, she should be allowed to leave to pursue other vocations.
Speaker 1:In July 1909, mary left North Brother Island to plead her case before the New York Supreme Court. The Department of Health argued strongly that there was scientific proof that she was a carrier and she was a danger to society. But Mary went to court with some ammunition of her own, using her boyfriend Breyhoff as a courier. She had been sending specimens to Ferguson Laboratory in Manhattan for months. The results of these labs directly contradicted the health department's reports, which stated that no bacteria were present in the samples. She sent Health Department's reports which stated that no bacteria were present in the samples she sent. She said there are two kinds of justice in America and all the water in the ocean wouldn't clear me of this charge in the eyes of the Health Department. They want to make it a showing. They want to get credit for protecting the rich and I am the victim.
Speaker 1:This led some public health officials to be outraged at Mary's continued incarceration. Even Charlie Taplin declared it's a discredit to public health work in New York. Adding to the pressure on the Department of Health to find a better solution to the Mary problem, they even suggested she move to another state so that she would be another state's problem. But Mary refused, stating I've been told that all I have to do is to leave the state and live under another name and I can have my freedom. But I will not do this. I will either be cleared or I'll die where I am now.
Speaker 1:In 1910, the tide of public opinion changed, as did Mary's fortune. New York City hired a new health commissioner named Ernst Letterly. Letterly was uncomfortable with the humanitarian and civil liberty implications of Mary's confinement. He released her on the condition that she report in regularly and agree never to work as a cook again. He even found her a job as a laundress, which was the bottom of the domestic ladder, and horrendous work that paid close to nothing. Mary's boyfriend died soon after her release and there she was on her own, barely able to scrape together a living.
Speaker 1:The New York City Health Department continued to track her, but in 1914, they lost track of her, and they had bigger problems by that time, because 3% of the people who contracted typhoid fever became carriers after they recovered, which meant that there were thousands of people like Mary in New York and it was impossible to track them all. So therefore the Department of Health focused on those who posed the most significant risk the food handlers. So they passed a resolution that required anyone handling food in New York City to be tested regularly and issued cards so that they would be known to the health department. They were given instructions about what they should and shouldn't do and they were supposed to report back periodically to the health department for checkups. This understandably yielded a very low return for healthy carriers and was extremely expensive. But low-paying laundry work doesn't cut it. So Mary took cooking jobs under fake names and outbreaks started popping up again.
Speaker 1:In March 1915, the city's prestigious Sloan Maternity Hospital experienced an outbreak of typhoid. 25 doctors, nurses and staff members succumbed to the disease and two died from it. The hospital called Dr George Soper and when he arrived he was told that he had a typhoid epidemic on his hands. Servants at the hospital jokingly referred to the hospital cook as Typhoid Mary. He went to talk to the cook, whose name was Mrs Brown, but she wasn't working that day. So he was handed a letter from which he immediately recognized Mary Malone's handwriting when he showed up to the hospital a day later and reported the kitchen.
Speaker 1:Sure enough, there she was, mary Malone earning her a living in the hospital kitchen, spreading typhoid like she'd always done before. What a destructive angel that she was, yep. So Department of Health employees traced her living quarters to a place in Queens and when she didn't answer the doorbell they used a ladder to get to the second floor and break in. And she went without a struggle. No carving fork this time, thank goodness.
Speaker 1:So she was sent again back to Brothers Island, but even in enforced isolation she was permitted to live with her pet fox terrier dog, which was one of the few companions she had in her final decades. Some accounts say she doted on him obsessively. The Department of Health occasionally allowed Mary to take the ferry into New York City on a day trip to visit friends, but she would always return on time. Over the years, the Department of Health developed a more flexible approach to healthy carriers of the disease. Food handlers were retrained or paid to stop working, but even those who were uncooperative were not punished in the same manner as Mary Mallon was. Eventually, mary was hired as a lab technician at Riverside Hospital in 1932. Ironically, although not allowed to cook for people, she was ultimately given work in the island's laboratory where she washed bottles, prepared medical equipment and assisted in autopsy. So I guess they're already dead.
Speaker 1:Mary suffered a stroke which left her partially paralyzed and she died in 1938 after 26 years of captivity on North Brother Island. She was 69 years old when she died. Her possessions reportedly included her beloved cooking tools, which she kept for decades, almost like a chef's version of a security blanket. Her autopsy found typhoid bacteria still in her gallbladder. She was buried in St Raymond's Cemetery in the Bronx and her grave remained unmarked for years. Official records attribute 51 infections and three deaths to her. However, historians believe that the actual number was much higher potentially over 100, because many of the cases were not traced or recorded. Mary never accepted that she was the cause of their deaths. Ten years after her death, antibiotics were developed that could treat the disease and cure healthy carriers like Mary. Still, new and even more deadly diseases continue to arise, confronting us with the issues that Mary Mallon raised a century ago. As a society, we need to be cautious and careful about how we protect public health, but also maintain the rights of individuals who are ill.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, wow, Poor Mary.
Speaker 1:She was so spicy though I mean I love that, but like I can get where she'd be like if it's not known that you can be a carrier, ill, she'd be like I can get where she'd be like if it's not known that you can be a carrier?
Speaker 2:I know I'm not sick.
Speaker 1:Quit picking on me. I like to cook. Leave me alone. I'm doing a peach ice cream thing. Yeah, quit punishing me.
Speaker 2:People love my cooking, yeah, also just so interesting how like things unfolded over the centuries and how we know the things we know now, like an asymptomatic carrier. There was a time where no one knew what that was.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine marching in and forcing vaccination on people? Just asking people to get vaccinated was a big deal during COVID. Yeah, oh, that's crazy. So, yeah, there's a fine line between public health and individual rights. I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but, like I just feel sorry for her because they didn't know at the time. She just happened to be the first, but she was one of thousands, yeah, yeah, and she was the one who had to pay for it. She wasn't ever given. Yeah, and she was the one who had to pay for it. She wasn't ever given.
Speaker 2:But I'm also like. Well, I mean, she did get sent to be a launderer, which was apparently the bottom of the chain.
Speaker 1:But I'm like Mary, you could have also just got a different job. Yeah, it's harder to feel sorry for her when she had a chance and they're like you can go live in another state and be there.
Speaker 2:They're like listen.
Speaker 1:California's a great place. Just go. Even Pennsylvania, that's right next door. Just go somewhere else. Why don't?
Speaker 2:you go spread over there.
Speaker 1:She's so stubborn, she's so convinced that she wasn't a problem Literally anywhere.
Speaker 2:So, bless her heart, just chasing everyone with her fork.
Speaker 1:No man. So, Amanda, what can our listeners expect to hear next week?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not sure yet for sure. Oh, a surprise. I'm in the same boat as always, still working on books. Still not sure. Might be a surprise to all of us. I love that for us, okay, so just keep you on the seat of your pants there. So since I don't have our regular script here, let me pull one up so I can sign you off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry I skipped a bunch of stuff so I wouldn't keep our listeners for too long, but okay, I got this okay.
Speaker 2:So, guys, until next, don't miss a beat. Subscribe or following doctor in the truth wherever you enjoy your podcast, for stories that shock, intrigue and educate trust. After all, it's a delicate thing. You can text us directly on our website at doctor in the truth, at bus prepcom, email us your own story ideas and comments at doctor in the truth at Gmail. And be sure to follow us on instagram at doctoring the truth podcast, and facebook at doctoring the truth. We're on tiktok at doctoring the truth and edodd pod. Don't forget to download, rate and review so we can be sure to bring you more content next week. Until then, stay safe and stay suspicious be, suspicious, okay, goodbye.
