Doctoring the Truth
Welcome to Doctoring the Truth, a podcast where two dedicated audiologists dissect the world of healthcare gone rogue. Explore jaw-dropping stories of medical malfeasance, nefariousness, and shocking breaches of trust. The episodes provide deep dives that latch onto your curiosity and conscience. It's a podcast for truth-seekers craving true crime, clinical insights, and a dash of humor.
Doctoring the Truth
Ep 23-Baggies Full of Tumors: The Disgusting Story of a Horrific "Holistic" Healer
Brian O'Connell, a fraudulent naturopath in Colorado, killed multiple patients through dangerous fake treatments and false claims of medical expertise. His case exposed a sprawling industry of unaccredited schools and mail-order credentials that enabled him to practice medicine without any legitimate qualifications.
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Take two Amanda Jenna hey, how you doing? Oh good, how are you Good? Welcome to the second attempt at recording episode 23.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of you may have noticed that we didn't upload an episode last week. I know some of you noticed because you texted me Concerned. We're alive, we're fine, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some of us include well, most well me. Basically, what happened was I went to this should be part of the correction section but I thought I saved my the dog ate my homework. Basically I thought I saved the recording on my end and apparently my computer memory was too full and it must have given me an error of notice somehow, but I don't recall seeing it. So my end was not saved and then I tried to. I'm boring everybody, but I tried to go in after the fact and act like I could banter, like it was it's way harder than you think like because I had amanda's track.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about how she would do that and I was like, how will she do that? I figured out, obviously, you know yeah no, because how would you sometimes remember, like, what you were talking about? That would prompt my commentary, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the banter was super hard. I was like, well, just screw the banter, we'll just do the episode. But even in the episode I think I kept interrupting, so it was just a no-go, we're doing it again. Take two it's going to be awesome. And I was telling Amanda, it's been a week since we recorded last and even though it's the same material, I'm going to be just as surprised as our listeners because my short term memory is really bad, so yay.
Speaker 2:I'm looking forward to this. I felt like at a couple of parts I kind of just like blabbed on and then it felt like a car crashing into a wall at the end and it was like, okay, we're done. And I was like, okay, we're done. And I was like I'm just gonna fix that. So lucky for you guys. Um, my story is two pages shorter than it was before and, uh, the ending is a little softer, with a like a parachute. So, oh bless, I guess you know what you're gonna let us down gently?
Speaker 2:it just. It works out better for everybody that I love that yeah I really did and I did say last time like, wow, that was like a car crashing into a brick wall, sorry, um.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's a, it's a little nicer ending I didn't feel that way last time, but I'm happy to be gently deposited this time around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's do that okay, so um, no really disclaimers or trigger warnings. My sources will be in the show notes. We already did correction section um. You know what? You guys were busy celebrating the holiday anyway. So here we are, um. So that brings us to um. Probably you had some beverages over the holiday let's hope so because I don't know it was. America's birthday, so probably you did.
Speaker 1:I will say. I will say, amanda, just in all fairness, the majority of our listeners are US, but we have a large percentage, comparatively, that are from the UK, and I just want to say I'm so sorry, but we did celebrate our independence from you guys. You can come take us back anytime, okay. No, oh, my gosh, that would be so fun. Please come take us.
Speaker 2:Vacation, let's go, let's go. Well, for those of us who did celebrate with beverages, you may have had a Shimmerwood beverage. Shimmerwood beverages can be found at shimmerwoodcom. They are craft CBD infused seltzers using full spectrum CBD for a calming, non-intoxicating effect. Twice named the number one CBD drink by Forbes. These refreshing seltzers combine main source fruit, cocktail bitters and clean ingredients. So no added sugars, caffeine or artificial flavors. Available in bold flavors like Raz, lime, chai, cherry, ginger, orange and Just Hemp. Shimmerwood offers a natural, flavorful alternative to alcohol or sugary drinks, perfect for relaxing anytime, straight or mixed. Visit wwwshimmerwoodcom for an exclusive 30% off with our discount code STAYSUSPICIOUS, which, now that I'm reading that, I think on take one, you did correct your coupon code.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we have to. God, I keep making this. A whole section Could be half the episode by the time I get done with all Jenna's mistakes. But Amanda was right. The promo code for was it Cozy Earth? Well, basically the promo code for anything that we've talked about, cozy Earth and the coffee and the shimmer wood and all of that and the bras is stay suspicious. And I had said just suspicious, yeah, and Amanda said is stay suspicious. And I had said just suspicious, yeah, and Amanda said it was suspicious. Amanda was like this is suspicious and I said no, I'm absolutely 100% sure that it's just suspicious. And she said it. I was so confident If you're going to make a mistake, just do it with you know cojones. And Amanda said are you sure? Because I thought and I was like actually I'm not sure, and then I went and looked and I was totally wrong. So so, yeah, thank you for bringing that up so anyway that's actually part two, and we're ready to.
Speaker 2:Uh, we're ready to dive back in guys, all right.
Speaker 2:So here we go. Naturopathy is often painted in hues of peace and healing gentle herbs, acupuncture needles, the quiet wisdom of ancient practices. To many, including myself, it's an appealing compliment to Western medicine. It's less invasive and more holistic. But in 2003, in the suburbs of Colorado, naturopathy became the backdrop for a tragedy so profound that it would ultimately challenge the line between alternative healing and criminal fraud.
Speaker 2:Sean Flanagan was the kind of teenager that you could never forget Vibrant, restless, always chasing the next adventure. His mother, laura, remembers him as a light. He was always smiling, always trying new things, she said. His dad, dave, described him simply a great kid, strong and active. His sister, kelsey, remembers his connection to nature. He loved the river. When he kayaked it was like he was one with the water.
Speaker 2:But at just 16 years old everything changed. Sean started to complain of pain in his leg. Then one afternoon he collapsed in the bathroom. Laura found him curled up on the floor, pale and gasping. A frantic rush to the ER followed and then the unthinkable a football-sized tumor in his pelvic region. He was diagnosed with Ewing sarcoma, a rare and aggressive form of bone cancer.
Speaker 2:The hospital became their second home. He spent Christmas, surrounded by IV poles and blinking machines, but never lost his spirit. I just want to go to Hawaii. Sean once said lay in a hammock, fly over a volcano. Sean once said lay in a hammock, fly over a volcano. He smiled through the chemo, joked with the nurses and dreamed big, even when the odds got smaller. Doctors prepared the family for surgery and in late 2003, the doctors found the tumor had not shrunk. However, they decided to operate. The surgery was complex and dangerous, but the Flanigans were desperate for time. When they opened Sean up, they discovered that the femoral artery had been ravaged by the cancer. To save his life, the surgeons had to amputate his leg. And even through all of this, sean still smiled and still dreamt.
Speaker 1:Oh man.
Speaker 2:Shortly after surgery, sean's grandmother boarded a flight back to Colorado. Like fate pulling cruel strings, sean's grandmother met a stranger on the plane. Her eyes were swollen with grief when the man seated next to her leaned in to offer support. She shared Sean's story and that's when he told her there's someone in Wheat Ridge, a doctor. He cured my friend's cancer. He spoke with certainty and hope about this doctor. He said that this doctor had cured people that the hospitals had given up on that. This doctor knew how to remove tumors naturally.
Speaker 2:After landing, she called the family to share the news. His name was Brian O'Connell, a naturopath. The family had never even heard of the word naturopath before, but they were desperate. They looked up his website website and it seemed legitimate. There were testimonials, professional-looking photos and diplomas hanging on the wall. So they went.
Speaker 2:When they pulled up to Mountain Area Naturopathic Associates, they were met with warmth and confidence. Brian O'Connell greeted them personally with a warm smile, a firm handshake and friendly eyes. He spoke to them of photoluminescence, a groundbreaking treatment, he claimed. We draw blood from Sean, he explained, run it through ultraviolet light to super oxygenate it, then reintroduce it into his system. It cleanses the blood, destroys the cancer. I've seen it work, it will work. He looked Laura and Dave in the eyes and said no Irish kid is going to die on my watch. It sounded revolutionary. It sounded hopeful, like a miracle.
Speaker 2:The Flanigans wrote a check for $7,400 on the spot and Sean's first treatment was that same day. At first it didn't seem to do much. Sean didn't feel better, but he didn't feel worse either, until he did. The next day, on December 12th, everything changed. Sean was admitted to the hospital with a blood infection known as septicemia, which developed into pneumonia, and he remained hospitalized until the 15th of December, at which time he was discharged home on five liters of oxygen and an oxygen monitoring device known as a pulse oximeter, unknown at the time. The blood infection was caused by the unsterile photoluminescence procedure he received on the 10th.
Speaker 1:Oh man, this is totally preventable then?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. On December 16th and and again we're in 2003 o'connell arrived at the flanagan's home to complete another treatment. He brought with him his equipment and supplies for a photoluminescence procedure. The family gathered in the living room for the procedure and insisted that he used sterile techniques, which he complied. O'connell inserted the IV line and began the procedure. Sean's pulse oximeter showed oxygen saturation levels dropping from the normal range, which is over 90%, to levels in the 60% range, which slowly then returned to normal. He left the equipment at the home for the family to do the procedure again the following day with the UV light and hydrogen peroxide. The family followed the instructions and performed the procedure and this time his SATs dropped into the 40% range. The family contacted O'Connell with great concern and he assured them that he would find a fix for the problem. I like also think I just paid you $7,400. Why am I completing the third treatment Like?
Speaker 2:exactly why aren't you doing it?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Okie dokie.
Speaker 1:And, sorry, the hydrogen peroxide. Where's that going?
Speaker 2:Oh, don't worry. So he draws the blood out and then he mixes it with hydrogen peroxide.
Speaker 1:Oh God, I'm going to be sick. Okay, all right. Oh man.
Speaker 2:On the 18th, o'connell returned to the Flanagan's home to perform the same procedure, but it included a more rapid infusion of the hydrogen peroxide with the UV light procedure. As the procedure was completed, sean's SATs plummeted to below 20. His skin turned gray and he collapsed after begging. Please, god, no more. Panic filled the room. O'connell stared at the pulse oximeter. He had no idea what it was. He stared at the numbers like they were a foreign language. He thought the device was broken. But Sean's dad was a firefighter and an EMT and he knew exactly what the device was and what the plummeting numbers meant. He had to resuscitate his own son.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Sean, terrified, whispered no more, Pack your stuff and go. Sean had a really rough night and unfortunately, the next morning the family woke up to find that his skin was yellow. They knew that his liver function and kidney function were shutting down. Sean would pass away later that day, surrounded by family. After just four treatments in less than a week, he died. The boy that they were told might have months left to live was gone just 18 days after meeting Brian O'Connell.
Speaker 1:Oh god, it's devastating.
Speaker 2:Three months later, on March 25th 2004, sergeant Jonathan Pickett of the Wheat Ridge Police Department was called to the Lutheran Medical Center. A 17 year old named Catherine Cat she went by Brissina had inexplicably gone into cardiac arrest. Cat and her family had traveled from Wisconsin to receive medical treatment from O'Connell. During one session, he performed photoluminescence and gave the teenager an injection of vitamin C and B12. It was supposed to be a routine preventative care session, but after the vitamin injection, cat vomited, gasped for breath and lost consciousness.
Speaker 2:While O'Connell attempted mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, paramedics raced to the scene and delivered Kat to the medical center. According to paramedics, she was in cardiac arrest for at least 10 minutes and doctors initially weren't sure whether she'd make a full recovery. Her care team learned from the family that there had been a doctor administering a blood purification treatment. The name of this doctor Brian O'Connell. An ER doctor called and spoke with O'Connell to try and understand what the treatment was. In an effort to save the girl's life, o'connell explained to them that this patient just had an anxiety attack, but Dr Joanne Edney was skeptical oh, yeah, come on Anxiety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't give you a heart attack, anxiety.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it might feel like it is going to.
Speaker 1:I love that TikTok. By the way, the dances Okay Anyway.
Speaker 2:She told Belize that she believed the young woman's sudden problem was caused by I don't know, an allergic reaction, an air embolism, a blood embolism or a contaminated product, not by anxiety.
Speaker 1:Duh.
Speaker 2:The ER doctor noted that O'Connell didn't even sound like a doctor he didn't use terms like a doctor and so they looked him up, and then they realized he didn't really seem to have the credentials necessary to be performing such a treatment.
Speaker 1:But Amanda did. He have no clothes on and a trailer.
Speaker 2:You know this guy was a little bit of a step up from our old trailer McGee. This guy has an office and as far as I'm aware, he has his clothes on. He was never in the porn industry. If you don't know what we're talking about, please go back to episode what 21,? I think no 20?.
Speaker 1:What is this? 23 today? So it's 22, 21, 20. Episode 20.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a weirdo that episode will forever make me laugh.
Speaker 2:Same. Within days another case emerged rory galagos. He was only 44 and had been diagnosed with colon cancer that had spread to his liver. Rory felt that his medical team had given up hope, and that is what he craved. He then found Brian O'Connell, who offered him not only hope, but a cure. Anything that Rory wanted, brian O'Connell said he could deliver. O'connell had promised him healing through a topical treatment called black salve. He told Rory that if he applied this to his skin it would draw out the tumor.
Speaker 1:He guaranteed that it would work oh, come on, it's not a zit, people, it's not a zit, it's a tumor.
Speaker 2:It's a tumor black salve is an archaic, corrosive ointment known to destroy tissue because it contains alkaloids that attack and destroy any living tissue that it's applied to. It would be like applying battery acid on an open wound, said Dr Terry Dubrow. It was used in the early 1900s and has since been replaced with safer and more effective treatments. There is no evidence that it has any correlation to aid in cancer treatment and is actually considered illegal. Now, though, it is still sold by unscrupulous practitioners. According to Dubrow, rory followed O'Connell's instructions of putting the salve on, let's just say, a sensitive part of his body.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:He applied it daily and soon his skin was raw and oozing. The salve had begun to eat away at his skin and the sore grew bigger and bigger and bigger, until he was rushed by ambulance to the hospital where he would sadly pass away within hours. Rory's wife, janet, was devastated and said he told us he could save Rory. He said that he'd never lost a cancer patient, but my husband died in agony. He was robbed of dignity. But my husband died in agony. He was robbed of dignity. She went on to say he had all of these certificates. He was a pharmacist. He knew what he was doing, but he wasn't. He was fraudulently advertising expertise that he didn't have.
Speaker 2:Investigators quickly discovered that photoluminescence wasn't even medically recognized. It was invasive and legally restricted to licensed physicians. While it wasn't illegal, it wasn't considered a legitimate medical treatment. It is invasive and should only be completed by a licensed medical doctor. O'connell was a naturopath, not a licensed medical doctor. He wasn't even certified under legitimate institutions, as far as they could tell online. On March 29th, investigators executed a search warrant and raided O'Connell's clinic. What they found was chilling. His walls were covered in fake diplomas, including one from the Colorado University of Naturopathic Medicine, which is a university that doesn't even exist. Oh, are you kidding?
Speaker 2:no, they googled it and they were like whoa, this place isn't real the balls on this man I know, I just I can't okay it appeared that all of his certificates had been purchased from the internet of course there were boxes of potassium chloride, which is used to stop heart strain surgery, along with iv stands and hardware store uv lights.
Speaker 2:Nothing was sterile, nothing was safe and, worst of all, they found 4 000 patient files, thousands that had paid for weeks of treatments that amounted to nothing but false hope and harm. And his photoluminescence machine. Yeah, it was just a loop of tubing under a heat lamp. They were lights that you literally could buy at a hardware store, a light that you'd find like hanging in someone's garage. They were nothing special, not medical-grade light bulbs that would have any effect on someone's blood. It was a trick and he was a fraud.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God, I mean I did better with lights with our terrarium for our lizard. You know what I mean, like holy cow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you may be wondering also how did he even get his hands on some of these things outside of the hardware lights?
Speaker 1:I was going to say you go to a pet store. Really Well, you go to Ace Hardware and you just buy the lights, obviously.
Speaker 2:But how about these things? I don't know? Drugs that stop a heart. Why does he have that?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 2:Even the DEA had been fooled by O'Connell. Detective Pickett was able to trace back his application for the controlled substance license. The application stated that he was going to be working under a grant administered by the Colorado State University in Fort Collins to test controlled substances on patients. He conned the DEA what he obtained a DEA license through a lot of fraud and a lot of lies, which allowed him to outfit his clinic with these things that really he wasn't allowed to have, and with these things he tortured desperate people for profit okay this is a big fat puke.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but isn't some of this on the DEA? Because if he's claiming that he has this degree from a university that doesn't exist, did they even do the basic discovery process? Did they make him prove? Like, how did they, how did they approve it? I mean, where's the grant? Uh, approval as well? Like surely you have to show that I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think uh, definitely some holes in the process.
Speaker 1:I don't know that's disgusting either way, but it should not have been able to go through all those hoops, unless he's like this genius. Like what do you call it when somebody copies signatures and uh, yeah, um, why can't I think of that? Forger, forger, forgery and all of this other stuff? I don't know how the dea would have. He would have passed muster in any way. We're not talking about the 1800s here. What the hell backed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, this is the early 2000s. I'm like thinking back to like my irb applications for like research and stuff. Oh, oh my. God, I don't know.
Speaker 1:You can't even put earphones in somebody without an insanely rigorous process.
Speaker 2:And then you have to have like interviews with the people. Yeah, to approve your application.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Step by step so.
Speaker 1:Wow, somebody was sleeping through this process.
Speaker 2:With that. I don't really know, like, how interested they were in like who I was, in my credentials, but I don't know. I also have never applied for a grant for research either. But any puzzles.
Speaker 2:Hopefully this uh rose a flag to have an improvement in the process let's hope so so also, while I was reading through these materials, like I kept wondering how often is this happening? Like, are people just getting fake licenses and fooling agencies like the DEA? But I did not have to wonder for very long because the Seattle Times investigated O'Connell's wall of degrees and uncovered much of the bigger story about credentialing fraud which, honestly, it could just be an episode of its own. But here is a very condensed version, which is part two, condensed from part one, so you're welcome. So this is what the Seattle Times found.
Speaker 2:O'connell was part of a sprawling multimillion dollar industry that sells fake legitimacy through an international web of unaccredited schools and dubious trade associations an international web of unaccredited schools and dubious trade associations. They found that at least 104 unaccredited schools issue alternative medicine degrees not recognized by the US Department of Education. Many operate solely online or by mail. The largest, clayton College of Natural Health, claims to have issued over 25,000 degrees through a home study model. Major credentialing bodies in this space are controlled by just two businessmen Wow, shocking. One in Texas and the other in Las Vegas, who run mail order factories issuing professional titles and accreditations to over 100 schools. Manufacturers of energy devices often run or sponsor training programs that hand out credentials which practitioners then use to market themselves as healthcare professionals.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, I think we could do an entire series on this. Are you kidding me In this day and age?
Speaker 2:Are you? It was like the Las Vegas credentialing mill. I was like, ah, this is such a rabbit hole.
Speaker 1:Are you effing kidding me right now?
Speaker 2:And those homies are just sitting at home making big dollars.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:Printing papers saying they have a degree, and we had blood sweat and tears.
Speaker 1:To go to an accredited university to be able to get into this so many tears, oh my God, this makes me so angry. I can't believe this is happening now.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe you'll tell me it's not happening now, 20 years ago okay, I'm sorry, I'm old, so to me it's still hard to believe that early 2000s is 20 years.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's yesterday yeah, yeah, maybe we need to do an episode on whether or not this is improved. Anyway, sorry I keep interrupting, but Giltonen of Vassar University, one of only five accredited naturopathic colleges in the US.
Speaker 2:She added, to argue that you don't need any training to diagnose or treat patients is absurd, and I'm just going to make a quick insert that, again, this was almost 20 years ago. So there may be more than five accredited naturopathic schools in the U? S at this time. I don't know, so don't come for me, but at the time of this article there were only five. And the article goes on to say naturopathy is a growing field favoring natural remedies over pharmaceuticals. In 14 States, including Washington, it's a licensed profession requiring a degree from an accredited four-year college. But in the other 36 states, like Colorado where O'Connell operated, anyone could call themselves a naturopathic doctor with no training at all.
Speaker 1:Hmm, sounds to me like the difference between a hearing maybe I shouldn't say this, but hearing aid dispenser, where you don't even have to have a high school diploma, at least in Minnesota and audiologists, where the minimum licensure requirement is a doctoral degree and they're both fitting hearing aids Like. I guess we're not the only profession that's suffering from this dichotomy.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of parallels actually.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, Unfortunately yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mm-hmm parallels actually. Oh, wow, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, one of the certificates on o'connell's wall came from the american naturopathic medical association, which sounds official but is based out of las vegas, from a po box. Its founder, donald hayhurst, is known as the godfather of mail order credentials. Hey, hurst.
Speaker 1:Sorry, even his name is like hey Don. Hey Hurst, give me a degree, dude.
Speaker 2:He's like okay, get out your checkbook. He has issued thousands of memberships and they are or were I don't know if they still are $350 to $500 apiece and accredits various schools. An ANMA board member defending their legitimacy, saying some people say we're fake. I can't convince them. Okay, I think that took out part of the quote because I shortened it, but it was like if they don't want to join us, then so be it. It's like okay. Meanwhile, hayhurst declined to speak with reporters, so shocking, what a shock, yeah.
Speaker 2:So by this point investigators were convinced that O'Connell was a con man and not a doctor. They believe they had sufficient grounds to charge him with criminal impersonation theft by fraud theft by frogs illegally obtaining controlled substances. I think I said throd, that would be better.
Speaker 1:I know, but theft by frogs would be even better.
Speaker 2:Either way it was incorrect and multiple counts of assault tied to injuries sustained by patients rory galagos and cat brisina, whose cases had triggered the original investigation. But before we get more into that, it's time for a chart note. Welcome to the chart note segment, where we learn about what's happening in medicine and healthcare. So there's a new technology that could enable scientists to better observe how tissue samples change over time. A nano needle breakthrough could end painful cancer biopsies. Inserting a needle or scalpel to extract a sliver of tissue, often from deep in the body, has long been the most reliable way to diagnose cancer, and these traditional biopsies are invasive, frequently painful and not without risk. Now, researchers at King's College in London believe they have found a gentler and more effective alternative a patch studded with millions of microscopic nanoneedles capable of extracting a wealth of diagnostic data without damaging the tissue. Nanoneedles capable of extracting a wealth of diagnostic data without damaging the tissue. To the naked eye, the device resembles a simple, flexible plaster. In fact, it is coated with a dense force of silicone probes each thousands of times thinner than a human hair. When applied to a suspected tumor, the needles are fine enough to penetrate individual cells, gently drying out biochemical data, including lipids, proteins and fragments of genetic material, all while leaving the tissue intact. The samples are analyzed using mass spectrometry, a technique that identifies the molecules present. Artificial intelligence is then used to interpret the findings. In trials involving 23 human brain tumor samples, the technique distinguished between different types of disease. It returned results in as little as 20 minutes potentially quick enough to inform the surgeon's next move during an operation, which is super cool. The research published in the journal Naturo no, I'm redoing that sentence. No, I'm redoing that sentence. The research published in the journal Natural.
Speaker 2:Nanotechnology belongs to a fast-growing field known as spatial biology, where the aim is to understand disease by mapping where different molecules sit in tissues. Most methods require removing and killing the tissue, making it impossible to observe how the structure changes over time. Killing the tissue making it impossible to observe how the structure changes over time. The nanoneedle patch, by contrast, should allow for repeated, non-destructive sampling from the same site. Dr Cairo Sciapini of King's College London, who led the research, said from a purely scientific standpoint, this is the biggest breakthrough. We can get molecular information from the same tissue as many times as we want.
Speaker 2:Spatial biology as a field at the moment is exploding. It is revolutionizing the way that we understand tissues and how they function. One of the biggest challenges was that we couldn't monitor them longitudinally over time, and now we can. Manufactured using the same lithographic techniques as computer chips, the nanoneedles can be integrated into medical instruments that could include the devices used to place stents in coronary arteries, allowing doctors to monitor the fatty deposits that cause cardiovascular disease. For conditions such as suspected mouth or throat cancer, the patches could eliminate the need for painful biopsies altogether. Chiappini said for some patients, this could be the beginning of the end for painful biopsies. Our technology opens up new ways to diagnose and monitor disease safely, helping doctors and patients make better, faster decisions.
Speaker 1:This is amazing. I love this for so many reasons. Isn't it cool? Yeah, I wonder do you have to actually make contact with the actual tumor for it to be able to do what you need to do? Because then you know if it's a tumor that's not at the surface, does it have to be long enough to like?
Speaker 2:Or it's like the different patches have different lines, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or is it just that your lipids and your body chemistry is going to be different when it's fighting cancer and they can track that without having to go deeper? I don't know, but either way that's fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, super cool, go guys in London, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yay, go London Go.
Speaker 2:London Woohoo, okay, back to the story, london Okay, back to the story. The investigation revealed that O'Connell fraudulently misrepresented his background and qualifications through his website handouts and prominently displayed licenses, certificates and awards. He presented himself as a doctor, despite lacking any legitimate education, training or experience. Wearing a white coat and a stethoscope to reinforce the image, he falsely claimed to be the medical doctor of Mountain Area Naturopathic Associates, implying medical expertise. His doctor of naturopathic medicine title came from the Herbal Healer Academy, which is an unlicensed, unaccredited correspondence school fined for deceptive practices.
Speaker 1:How surprising.
Speaker 2:Shocking. He also claimed to be a registered naturopath and to hold board certifications from non-accredited entities, none recognized by legitimate authorities. He falsely asserted he had degrees in microbiology, biochemistry and pharmacy from accredited institutions and claimed experience in pharmacy, allopathic medicine, chemistry, toxicology and forensics, despite, again, having little or no training in any of these fields. He displayed fraudulently the DEA and Colorado Department of Human Services licenses and, like going through these lists, I'm like there's no way one person would do all these things Right, like so you went to school for 40 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, come on, dude.
Speaker 2:No, you didn't, yeah. And if you say you did, did and you're only 45 years old, like no you're not a specialist in all areas exactly.
Speaker 1:I mean, it takes like an extra how many. So medical school is like an extra six years or whatever over undergrad, and then, uh, fellowship is another two to four, come on uh okano also misrepresented it, his experience, abilities and procedures.
Speaker 2:He claimed to have personally cured many cancer patients, including those with aggressive cancers like sean's metastatic e-wings sarcoma. He showed families plastic baggies containing objects that he said were tumors that he had removed, which sick because most medical nice touch, classy yeah, yeah, oh, we do ziplots for sure we wave them in front of families and say, look I did this.
Speaker 2:He had told sean's family his treatments could and would cure the cancer. Using slides that he claimed were of sean's blood, he pointed out alleged toxins and impurities to justify the treatment. He promoted black salve, uv light therapy, hydrogen peroxide infusions, vitamins, teas and supplements as cures, claiming sterile technique was unnecessary because the UV light would kill all the bacteria. He concealed the lack of scientific evidence, omitted known risks and failed to disclose the controversy surrounding these treatments. On May 19th, brian O'Connell was arrested but posted bail quickly. There were conditions, with Bond posted that he would not commit any other crimes.
Speaker 2:The story had a lot of media attention, as you could maybe imagine. The Flanagan saw it on the evening news and Laura immediately dialed the number at the bottom of the screen to share that their son was a victim of O'Connell. When detectives arrived at the Flanagan home, the story that they heard stopped them cold. The Flanagan shared that they had taken their son, sean, to see O'Connell, hoping naturopathic treatments might help. O'connell recommended various vitamins, teas and procedures, including withdrawing Sean's blood, exposing it to UV light and then reinforcing it along with hydrogen peroxide directly into his bloodstream. They described the in-home treatments and the scene that they believed ultimately led to Sean's death His oxygen levels had dropped, but O'Connell failed to recognize the signs. They told them there was no basic sanitation used, despite Sean being severely immunocompromised. The Flanagans came to understand that O'Connell's negligence using sterile techniques, performing and recommending risky, unproven procedures without proper training, licensing or scientific basis and infusing hydrogen peroxide into Sean's bloodstream a dangerous act he knew or should have known could have been fatal. He never yeah.
Speaker 1:Sorry, amanda, yes.
Speaker 2:Did I say sterile they?
Speaker 1:were unsterile techniques correct yeah, she's like. You have a correction section lady I just wanted to point that out. Okay, yay, somebody else other than me, lol yes, everybody, they are unsterile yeah didn't do anything correctly.
Speaker 2:Um, he never warned them of any risks and sean had been told that he might have up to six months to live, but he died just 18 days after meeting o'connell. The flanagans believed wholeheartedly that o'connell shortened sean's life and worsened his final weeks. They felt robbed of precious time with their son and sought justice not only for his death but also for the financial losses they incurred from the hospitalization, medical treatment for the resulting blood infection and the cost of McConnell's services. After their meeting with the Flanigans, investigators began to wonder if they were not only dealing with a fraud case but perhaps a homicide. Could they prove that he accelerated the death of Sean? They went to the coroner's office, who ruled his death was due to natural causes secondary to a deadly and aggressive form of cancer. They shared the story of Sean's last couple of weeks of life and the coroner then thought maybe this was not natural causes. Basic sterilization procedures were not used during photoluminescence treatments and also not carried out by a professional. She thought the lack of sterilization actually led to an infection which could have accelerated his death, and then she changed the death certificate from natural to undetermined. Wow, this would allow investigators to pursue criminal charges for the death of Sean.
Speaker 2:In the midst of all this, the DEA contacted authorities that they were contacted by O'Connell you guys, for tools to perform a treatment, even after he was not supposed to. An undercover sting was put together in an effort to later prove to a jury that he was offering hope to the hopeless and preying upon desperate. The day of the sting, o'connell met the undercover agents in the lobby and greeted them warmly. He took them back to his office where he explained how the black salve worked and proclaimed he could cure cancer. He then asked if they wanted to see pictures of tumors that his other patients had, and while showing him pictures of the tumors, he claimed this is going to be an underline, underline, underline, so pay attention. He claimed that the American Cancer Society didn't want the public to know about this treatment because then they would have to close their doors. Oh my God, like the American Cancer Society is not gatekeeping treatment guys?
Speaker 1:I can't even. I'm speechless.
Speaker 2:He was then arrested again on charges of criminal impersonation and practicing medicine without a license. He again made bail on the condition that he would not leave the state without permission and that he would not practice medicine, and as they were preparing for the trial, authorities were contacted that O'Connell appeared to be planning to leave the state.
Speaker 1:Shocking yeah. Wow, come on, guys, of course.
Speaker 2:One of his neighbors called in and said that the family was on the sidewalk with suitcases and they appeared to be waiting for a cab. Hello, and when investigators arrived, they were already gone oh but you know where they went? They went to disneyland they did not kidding me no, they didn't.
Speaker 2:No, oh my god, you can't make this stuff up he was arrested upon return from his excursion, but this just goes to show that he thought he was above the law and he just did whatever the hell he wanted to oh my god um, I did find conflicting like data through resources of like he didn't get arrested until he got back, but I did see one that was like um. When authorities arrived he was on the sidewalk and he had the tickets to disneyland in his pocket mickey mouse turned him in go mickey, go mickey.
Speaker 1:Oh, whatever, I mean it's pathetic. I thought he was gonna escape, but he's like so narcissistic that he's like ah, they're not gonna find me, they're not gonna out what I did, I'll just take my kids on a vacay.
Speaker 2:And I didn't even do anything wrong. Look at all these people I healed, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Oh God Okay.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Securing charges for the death of Sean would be complicated. O'connell had the best defense attorney in the state of Colorado. Authorities wanted to do everything in their power to strengthen the case. State of Colorado Authorities wanted to do everything in their power to strengthen the case, so they kept on digging. And this is when they discovered that not only did he make false claims about his credentials and experiences, they found that he had been bragging to his patients and even on his website that he had been an expert witness in legal cases. They looked through trial transcripts and there were transcripts where he testified to having a master's degree in microbiology from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.
Speaker 2:What Now, my friends? There's a felony. Yes, manslaughter would be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But if they could prove that he had been falsely testifying under oath as an expert witness, he could be charged with perjury, and each perjury count carries a two to six year sentence. So investigators believe that with this new information, they could leverage O'Connell to plead guilty to manslaughter without the risk of a trial. Investigators then met with O'Connell and his attorney to discuss the plea deal. Investigators wanted him to be put away for a long time and to own the responsibility for the death of Sean Flanagan. O'connell's defense attorney had a difficult time getting him to take responsibility for the death of Sean, but he basically told him listen, buddy, you've been exposed. Take responsibility now, or it's only going to get worse.
Speaker 1:Good for him.
Speaker 2:Yes now or it's only going to get worse. Good for him. Yes. On March 27th 2006, brian O'Connell was sentenced after pleading guilty to charges including criminally negligent homicide, practicing medicine without a license, assault, theft and perjury. The courtroom was filled to capacity. On one side, supporters were made up largely of former patients who believed that he had helped them and, on the other side, grieving loved ones of the three patients who had died under his care. Before the sentencing, o'connell had told the court that he was motivated by wanting to help people. When someone passes away, I take it very personally. He said. I didn't get into natural healing for money or prestige. District court judge margie inquest told o'connell people came to you in the most desperate situation and you took advantage of them, and o'connell was sentenced to 13 years well, good for margie, but I just feel like 13 years is nothing.
Speaker 2:I know, know, and I'll like see things online nowadays, like current events and it's like so-and-so got this much time for whatever crime and I'm like are you kidding? That's more than like these cases we cover where people kill people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, if you're like distributing marijuana, you can get life or you could have gotten life. And here he is 13 years for killing people and fraudulently treating people to make money conning the dea yeah, oh my god, yeah among those who spoke were laura and dave flanagan, sean's parents.
Speaker 2:They stood to be the voice sean no longer had, recalling how o'connell once told them no irish kid is going to die. On my watch, la Laura recounted Sean's final days and faced O'Connell directly. He is not who he says he is. He's a liar and a crook, she said. Dave, remembering his son's suffering, shared his last words as he crawled into bed no more, god, please, no more.
Speaker 1:Breaks my heart. It just makes me want to vomit that poor guy.
Speaker 2:Janet, the wife of Rory Gallagos, also addressed the court. She described Rory's final days as filled with pain and robbed of peace. He didn't want to die. She said he was taken too soon and denied the chance to say goodbye. She explained how O'Connell had assured Rory's family that he had never lost a cancer patient. He led me to believe that things weren't true. She said Rory was robbed of dignity in his death. There was one other gal. I had said that three people died under his care. There was one other gal who I couldn't find a lot of information on but um her. They were older couple and the husband took her to the clinic to see if he could heal her. He paid the amount of like $17,000 and she ended up passing away shortly after.
Speaker 2:That's a lot of money, but he was quoted in court to say and I don't have it written down, so this is like a subtext of this quote from my memory Something like my wife was dying, I would have paid any amount of money.
Speaker 1:Oh bless his heart, oh my.
Speaker 2:God, Like Jimmy Shoemaker.
Speaker 1:I believe his name was no they're just feeding off a desperation, and to me that's so much. I mean, murder is evil no matter what, and and defrauding people and deceiving people is just inconscionable. But to to give this kind of false hope, knowing you don't know what the hell you're doing, and actually injuring people and leading them to an untimely death, is just I. I can't believe. He only got 13 years and there was only one case that they were able to bring up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I kind of wonder if that's why Rory's wife was like. He was also robbed a time. He didn't want to die, hoping like maybe someone would pick it up as another case, or maybe they tried I don't know alternative healing. He was a caring person. I really don't want him to get in trouble, said Kat's mother. Kat stood firm in that she didn't have ill feelings towards O'Connell.
Speaker 1:She did, however, tell police that she probably wouldn't go to him again unless she had a serious health problem. Okay, well, that's somewhat telling, but also, girl, come on, wake up.
Speaker 2:It gets worse. She does also agree with O'connell's assessment of why she went into cardiac arrest.
Speaker 1:I could have spazzed, she told them, things happen is this the one with the anxiety claim on his part? Oh well, she's. Obviously. He's charismatic, she was bamboozled by him. But yeah, I mean, anxiety doesn't doesn't do that, it does a lot of things but doesn't do that no, and therein lies the crux of this issue.
Speaker 2:Are naturopaths actually doctors? Brian o'connell certainly presented himself as one. His business card identified himself as an n m, d or doctor of naturopathic medicine. He wore scrubs in a white lab coat embroidered with Dr O'Connell. His office walls displayed an array of certificates and diplomas that, at a glance, lent an air of legitimacy To the average patient. All of this might suggest that O'Connell was a licensed naturopathic physician, someone who earned a pre-medical undergraduate degree and graduated from one of the four accredited naturopathic schools in the US. The programs that are accredited offer training modeled after conventional medical education. That includes a whole bunch of stuff that I deleted, except for the word includes. Trust me, we don't need to go through all of it, but it even included 14 rigorous tests at the end of their schooling. So it was a lot. In states that recognize and license the profession, naturopathic physicians are considered primary care providers with the authority to diagnose, prescribe medications, perform minor surgeries and even deliver babies.
Speaker 1:Okay, sorry. So even family care physicians don't take it upon themselves to treat cancer. Even if they're full MDs or even doctors of osteopathy, they don't treat cancer as well. You don't expect a rural doctor to go. Oh well, I'm going to figure out what your cancer is and treat it. This is just beyond. Yeah, it's bad.
Speaker 2:Bad news bears but your cancer isn't treated. Oh, this is just beyond. Yeah, it's bad. Bad news bears. Despite the appearance of legitimacy, o'connell was not one of them. His degrees were from an uncredited correspondence school, called again the herbal healer Academy, and, in Colorado, where O'Connell practice, naturopathic doctors were not at the time licensed by the state. Dr Rena bloom, a licensed naturopathic doctors, were not at the time licensed by the state. Dr Rena Bloom, a licensed naturopathic physician, had pushed for formal licensure in the state for more than a decade. A quick Google search now shows that naturopathic doctors are now regulated in the state of Colorado.
Speaker 1:So we will take that as our silver lining for this case.
Speaker 2:Ta-da Wonderful that there's been some progress there um, and maybe even more since since then, this oh, for sure six that this case ended 19 years ago when that happened 19 years ago.
Speaker 1:Here's the thing, poor dr bloom, who is probably like a wonderful person with lots of alternative, non-traditional medicine treatments that that will benefit people, and here's this asshole who's out there making her look bad. You know what I mean? Pretending to do stuff, and how dare these particular institutions just just say, hey, cool, I, you, you spend this money, we'll give you something to put on your wall? I mean, how is that? Even there are a lot of evil players in this game. I mean, obviously he was at the top of the heap here, but like he didn't get there without some issues and gaps in the system on the way, whether they were intentional or not, but it's devastating either way.
Speaker 1:Um, I do think we should probably, because we've railed on this now maybe look at a future episode, maybe as a medical chart note, to say, okay, this is where naturopathy is now, because if it hasn't progressed to licensure in all states, uh, I'm gonna have a problem with that. Um, yeah, but thank you so much into that. Yeah, thank you so much for bringing this up, because, um, I do think, obviously, western medicine isn't the only answer, but, but, knowing that when you see a diploma on the wall, it doesn't necessarily mean it's. Even if it's from an organization that is who they say they are doesn't mean they're accredited. You know there are very few that are accredited to provide a rigorous education compared to others.
Speaker 2:So and like, have you ever gone into a doctor's office and like googled their stuff on? It was like no, I haven't, I haven't either.
Speaker 1:But I will say, like for audiology, there's only two organizations, in the us at least, that can accredit a university program. So someone can graduate from a program that will say you're an audiologist and I can only speak to what I know because that's what I am, but you can say you are one. But if you're not from one of an, they don't have to be accredited to say you're an audiologist, but you should be accredited to earn licensure to practice. And that's because those accrediting bodies review those universities programs and their clinical placements, and all of this to make sure that they're meeting the rigorous standards of, you know, minimum practice requirements, that they're actually covering all of the things that need to be done to be able to say that somebody's minimally competent in whatever field it is. So for audiology those are two programs the acae and um ash's body. I forget caa, um and the c's yeah.
Speaker 1:So this is crazy to me, that that it got this far, but damn him for, like, ruining people's lives, giving them hope and and basically killing people and torturing them. Because can I just say, okay, so I, I got bitten by a spider last week and, uh, I was convinced it was a Brown recluse, even though they're not indigenous to Minnesota. But I was like that's it, I'm dying, um, I'm, I'm almost dead, you know. But also I'm too busy to go in because, you know, doctor, treat thyself.
Speaker 1:No, I'm not going anywhere, I'm just going to diagnose myself as almost dead, but I'm going to carry on with my job and I don't have time for that and I have time to sit in a waiting room. So two days later, after the spider bite, my, my foot was looking gangrenous and I thought, okay, all right, I need to go in. So on my lunchtime I went up to the emergency room and, yeah, lo and behold, it was cellulitis and all this other stuff. But thank God I went there because I could have lost my foot and I remember I was going with this.
Speaker 1:But I don't know how we got here actually, but I'm glad that you were seen. So when I first got the spider bite, I was like well, I have to clean it out. And I was at work. All we had was hydrogen peroxide covered. So I soaked my foot in a bucket with hydrogen peroxide.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I forget about the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So two days later I was like all right, this is looking green, like what's going on here. And they were like you know what Hydrogen peroxide actually kills healthy tissue?
Speaker 2:So yeah, it cleans out the bad ones, but it kills healthy tissue.
Speaker 1:So this guy was using this to inject into people's bloodstreams to cure cancer and it kills healthy cells, and poor Sean didn't have many of those anyway. Yeah, so that's what immediately popped out to me. So I felt like a dumbass that I was putting this on my spider bite. And then I was like, oh dumb me Shouldn't have done that. This guy was injecting people's blood strains with stuff that kills healthy cells. So damn him.
Speaker 2:I am a hydrogen peroxide in the ear to like clean the ear and I love the like little skizzle it does in the ear canal.
Speaker 1:You know it's like yeah well, that's great, because it's not an open wound. It's.
Speaker 2:I love it, but then I'm like that's what I'm saying is like I'm like in my ear I can hear what it's doing in there, and like he was putting this in people's bloodstreams. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a soda fountain disaster in people's pipes. How dare he.
Speaker 2:And then to act like oh well, you're irish and I'm helping you.
Speaker 1:No, you remember, I don't care if you're irish or where you're from. Also, how dare you? Because even if you did have a special bond with people from ireland, you were actually killing them. He's disgusting um.
Speaker 2:And also, he only got 13 years, and so he's already out of jail.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, everyone look out for this guy. Hopefully you don't know if he's changed his name or anything.
Speaker 2:I don't know. No, I tried to like Google. Where is he today?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah he's probably changed his name. Hopefully he's laying low and Watch out.
Speaker 2:if you're in the Colorado area, if you're going to Naturopath, no, they have to be licensed. Now, med state, um. So that's good, but uh, anyway, last time, I think last time I told you guys that I finally got those bras from handful sports yeah, the brawls, nice looking good.
Speaker 1:Did you see all through the snap?
Speaker 2:I know, yep, thank you, thank you, um, so again, they are a company called handful, which I thought was super cute. Um, handful sports bras found at handfulcom combine comfort, style and performance. Created by fitness instructor and mom, mama. They're designed to support active lifestyles with moisture-wicking fabric, adjustable straps and removable pads, which I don't, honestly, usually love removable pads because they always come out in the laundry and then you put the frickers back in and whatever. But these removable pads, because I know, because I have them now, they're super cute. Like they have a little picture for you on there so you don't have to be a dummy which wondering which one goes where. So it has, like where it's you know, where you hold your hand up in front of yourself to see like which one's the l for the right shirt they have that on the inside, so you know which one to put that's the door which I was like that's cute.
Speaker 2:Um, they also make leggings and tops, and they are made by women, for women. They've been featured in top fitness magazines and loved by customers including myself. Handful also gives back to their survivor program, offering free pads to breast cancer survivors. Move more confidently, like me, with active wear that empowers Yeehaw. Visit Handfulcom for 30% off with our code stay suspicious yay, thank you.
Speaker 1:I think it's time for a medical mishap so this email came from someone who says we can use our name and her name is charlene and it it says Charlene, charlene, charlene, oh baby.
Speaker 1:Anyway, she says hi ladies, my name is Charlene. I've been a scrub nurse for what feels like eons, only eons, because, wow, the culture of the youngsters coming through these days admirable. They don't take back talk from the surgeons and I am silently here for that. You go. Girls, in my day we'd never dream of talking back or telling surgeons that they get to do something when they were done with what they were doing first. I love it. I feel like there's a lot more to that story, but, charlene, you'll have to write back in and let us know the down and dirty of how these surgeons think they're God. But okay, hopefully they're better now. So to the story.
Speaker 1:A patient came into the ER with abdominal pain. Classic symptoms pointed to appendicitis. The patient was rushed into surgery and the appendix was out. Everything looked good, textbook, except two days later the patient was still in severe pain. A repeat scan showed the real problem a perforated ulcer. The appendix had been fine, turns out. The resident had made the call based on a quick glance at the CT report and didn't catch the part about possible gastric perforation, and the attending signed off in a hurry. Everyone trusted the initial diagnosis, so the patient went back into surgery and recovered just fine, but the first surgery scar was completely unnecessary. Well, it's a good thing we don't need our appendix. And if you're from Minnesota, well, good thing we don't need our appendix. And if you're from minnesota, welp, good thing we. Well, we don't need our appendix. A. The lesson was burned into every intern who heard about it. Read the whole report yourself, thanks, for I mean, that's good advice, right? Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Speaker 2:if you do take care, charlie thanks for sending and, yeah, good thing they didn't need an appendix, because why be pissed though?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I know, because that's two surgeries instead of just one. But you know, hopefully the hospital paid for that.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sure they did.
Speaker 1:It'd be much cheaper than the lawsuit, which they would just pay them off anyway, to keep the mouth shut, because that's what hospitals do right so yeah, I mean not speaking from personal experience speaking about anywhere that I'm working, which I haven't said, so they don't need to get mad, okay yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:So, jenna, what can we expect to hear next week?
Speaker 1:Oh God, it's a pedophile people. It's a self-proclaimed pedophile who's a surgeon a gastric surgeon and it's the biggest pedophilic case in France of all time, and it has just recently. In the last couple weeks he's gone through trial and gotten his sentencing. So it's a doozy. Yeah, sounds like it. So, yeah, hopefully. I think it's important to talk about these things, but, yeah, it's not going to be lighthearted, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, we'll be there. Yeah, you will.
Speaker 1:Well, at least you will. You have to be.
Speaker 2:You know what uh, you know what? For sure, guys, I'll be here, you're. I was gonna say you're legally contracted?
Speaker 1:no, you're not, but you're emotionally contracted yes, I will be here if you're not here, um, but meanwhile, don't miss a beat.
Speaker 1:Subscribe or follow doctoring the truth wherever you enjoy your podcast for stories that shock, intrigueue and educate. Trust, after all, is a delicate thing. You can text us directly on our website at DoctoringTheTruthAtBuzzSpoutcom, or email us your story ideas and comments at DoctoringTheTruth at gmail. We definitely need medical mishaps from you guys. We read them out on air, we give you credit. If you want, you can stay anonymous, but we need more of those. Don't be shy.
Speaker 2:Don't be shy, and I've had a lot of you text me or tell me in person. Oh my God, this could be a medical mishap. So it's like, and I've told y'all you can be anonymous, you can change the names. It can be the same story but you can change names. But can be the same story but you can change names. But I cannot in my right conscience share it on the pod until you give me permission.
Speaker 1:So don't be scared. Yeah, don't be scared. And also write it out in your own words we don't want to go, oh so. And so my friend told me this like send it, we want your own words because you have a voice and you can, having been there, tell it better than anybody.
Speaker 2:So deal with it. If you feel like you suck at storytelling it's probably not true, but just like, write the bullet points down for ChatGPT and it will make it breast up for you. Okay, guys, I mean, that's how people are getting through college these days, I hear. So just put it in there if you think you can Damn.
Speaker 1:Where was that when we were? Yeah, I don't know, but it makes me feel really good like we did it without.
Speaker 2:We're so smart, we're so smart?
Speaker 1:um, absolutely, and be sure to follow us on instagram at doctoring the truth podcast, on facebook at doctoring the truth, and we're on tiktok at doctoring the truth and ed odd pod, which is ed aud-D-A-U-D-P-O-D. Don't forget to download, because we don't get credit for you listening to us unless you actually download. Isn't that crazy? We don't get stats as listeners. You're only considered a listener of our podcast if you download it. So download it please, even if you don't listen. Please listen, we'd like both, but ideally, if you have to pick one, at least download it and listen later. Rate and review, because those comments are priceless and, uh, we want to bring you more content each week, so help keep us motivated until then. Stay safe and stay suspicious.
Speaker 2:We're even looking at each other. I don't know why we're not doing that together. Suspicious bye.
