Doctoring the Truth
Welcome to Doctoring the Truth, a podcast where two dedicated audiologists dissect the world of healthcare gone rogue. Explore jaw-dropping stories of medical malfeasance, nefariousness, and shocking breaches of trust. The episodes provide deep dives that latch onto your curiosity and conscience. It's a podcast for truth-seekers craving true crime, clinical insights, and a dash of humor.
Doctoring the Truth
Ep 17-A Nut Job and a Dodgy Vitamin: Pseudoscience Debunked
The wellness industry is filled with charismatic figures promising natural cures and easy fixes, but what happens when these health gurus practice what they preach? Gary Null found out the hard way when his own supplement nearly killed him.
This episode examines how Null's story reveals a broken system where supplement manufacturers operate with minimal oversight, and charismatic figures can build fortunes selling both fear and supposed solutions. We'll explore why his pseudoscientific claims persist despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and provide resources for evaluating supplement safety.
Resources for Listeners:
- NIH Office of Dietary Supplements (ODS)
- 📍 Website: ods.od.nih.gov
- ✅ Offers fact sheets on vitamins, minerals, and other supplements.
- 🔬 Includes research summaries and safety information.
- National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH)
- 📍 Website: nccih.nih.gov
- ✅ Provides evidence-based information on supplements and alternative health practices.
- 📖 Useful for evaluating claims and risks.
When reading supplement labels, consider these key points:
- Serving Size: Amount recommended per use.
- % Daily Value (%DV): Shows how much of a nutrient is in one serving relative to the daily requirement.
- Ingredients List: Includes active ingredients and often a "proprietary blend" (which may not disclose exact amounts).
- Third-party Certifications:
- USP Verified, NSF Certified, or ConsumerLab Tested – indicators of independent testing and quality assurance.
FDA MedWatch – Safety Reporting Portal
- 📍 Website: www.fda.gov/medwatch
- 📝 Report side effects, bad reactions, or concerns about supplement safety.
- Poison Control Center
- ☎️ 1-800-222-1222
- 👩⚕️ Offers 24/7 advice in the event of a suspected overdose or toxic reaction.
- Your Healthcare Provider
- Always consult your doctor or pharmacist if you're unsure about a supplement or experience unexpected symptoms.
Don't miss a (heart) beat! Check out our Instagram @doctoringthetruthpodcast and email us your Medical Mishaps at doctoringthetruth@gmail.com. Join us on Facebook at Doctoring the Truth, and TikTok @doctoring the truth. Don't forget to download, rate, and review so we can keep bringing you more exciting content each week!
Stay safe, and stay suspicious...trust, after all, is a delicate thing!
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Amanda Jenna.
Speaker 2:Hello. Well hello, I love that we come in so soft when actually, before we hit record, we're always laughing our butts off and we're like, oh hello, how are you?
Speaker 1:And we're like let's be demure. Yeah, let's style it back and be people we aren't.
Speaker 2:Just so cool, calm and collected people.
Speaker 1:We aren't just so cool, calm and collected right. Um, speaking of which, I mean last week. Um, I don't know what happened my microphone decided she's gonna be hot. She ready, she's gonna be hot, she's gonna pick it all up and um, usually my track is softer than your track. I'm boisterous no shade.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say I got a great microphone. Thank you, Amazon.
Speaker 1:But she was hot last week. And here's me thinking, oh, halfway through Amanda's riveting story, as riveting as it was, my stomach was like grumbling and I was like, oh, you know what, I have a peanut butter Reese's peanut butter cup is stuffed in my desk drawer. You know what, I could be a good co-host and eat a Reese's. So there's me thinking I'm all sneaky sneaks, I'm going to sneaky sneaks my little Reese's, and I carefully take it out of the drawer and I just tediously unpeeled thing from the from the little, from the little, it's little harness what is that the cupcake holder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, I'm just like every little rivet, it was like oh my God, this is going in my mouth.
Speaker 2:Oh my, she's just salivating Like I'm like God, this is going in my mouth.
Speaker 1:She's just salivating. It went into my mouth in one piece because your girl's not shy.
Speaker 2:I was like I got to get it in here.
Speaker 1:I got to just pop this whole thing in real quick so I don't get caught. Exactly Manda wasn't looking, popped it in there and I was like, oh damn, there's another one, I need that other one. So I was like, all right, I'm going to do two. So we did two and the story was great and I lasted and I didn't perish of hunger. But unfortunately I made my life a lot harder because apparently with my hot mic going on, it heard every little thing it had heard, every little little munch, every little little you know mouth noise nobody wants to hear every little rustle, rustle, rustle as I thought I was.
Speaker 1:Oh, so cleverly and sneakily unwrapping these chocolates.
Speaker 2:You were and you did. You did it because, you guys, I had no idea she's like oh, last last time when I snuck these reeses out of my desk. I'm like what are you talking about? I didn't know, I didn't know, it's like how did you not?
Speaker 1:smack me I.
Speaker 2:I would have reached out and smacked myself I would have been like give me one editing this.
Speaker 1:I wanted to smack myself. It was so irritating. So, listeners, I'm not going to do that this time around because I just made myself more work. But I'm really glad Amanda's still speaking to me, because apparently she doesn't listen when she talks and that's my favorite candy.
Speaker 2:You guys, I was in the zone, I didn't even know. She's out here eating my favorite candy in front of me.
Speaker 1:It's my favorite. Oh, it's my favorite candy too. It's my favorite. Oh, it's my favorite candy too. We have so much in common. Why is that peanut butter so good? Oh, I know. And the best is when it's a seasonal yes, like a like a like an easter egg or a christmas tree. We see, is because then there's more peanut butter chocolate ratio.
Speaker 2:oh yeah, I'm not a fan of a ridge on anything Like brownies.
Speaker 1:What kind of psychopath likes the edge, let's not do that Middle no we need the chewy bit in the middle. First Show, fun show. All right, I'm so glad we're on the same. I mean, that was important to me, that we're. This is why this works, because we're on the same page.
Speaker 2:We. This works because we're on the same page. We're on the same page, oh my goodness. So anyway, it's monday, as y'all know, because we record on mondays. Hello monday, did you have a good day? Did you have a good weekend?
Speaker 1:I mean, are you asking me personally or?
Speaker 2:well, I guess. I mean, I don't know how else I would ask you so we always talk about the.
Speaker 1:It would I would be remiss if I did not bring up the weather, don't do it. As a minister.
Speaker 2:Don't tell everyone how windy it was I know, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:So I went to a graduation ceremony of my daughter's boyfriend and I was like, yay, it's a graduation ceremony and I put on some nice clothes. You know, my little flats, my little little dress this little that um didn't realize it was going to be outside, but also.
Speaker 2:oh, the ceremony was outside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean we're talking two and a half hours outside.
Speaker 1:Um, it was long winded ceremony outside, beautiful ceremony, but it was outside and uh, the wind chill. I mean it was outside and uh, the wind chill. I mean it was in the upper 30s, lower 40s, let's just put it that way. And having been when it's been the 80s, right, it's been up our 80s. So I lost the circulation in my fingers and my toes and it was so bad that I didn't even go for the cupcake bar. At the end I was like telling my, my daughter, I mean love him and all that. But, girl, you know, we got to warm up.
Speaker 2:We got to warm up. So I can't feel my toes. Yeah, how was your weekend? I was outside doing yard work all weekend, so can confirm it was super windy, super cold. One thing we're working on is leveling our yard, and so in order to do that, one has to scalp their yard first with the lawnmower, and I was out there y'all with gloves and, uh, like a winter, like a headband that you wear I'm showing jenna, but I hope that you call yeah, yeah, earmuffs, but not like the like your earmuffs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you're showing me basically antlers. Okay, okay, no, I was not sticking out, but no, okay, now I see the muff, the muff fingers. Yeah, well, you did this at first. Okay, yeah, it is an auditory medium, so we'll like yeah, y'all you guys know it's like a.
Speaker 2:I'm a headband. It's not the earmuffs with the it goes around, but like a felt, like a thick felt headband. It actually was a smart wool, oh wool.
Speaker 1:Oh good lord.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I'm so sorry. It's always the worst Hashtag smart wool. Please, please, sponsor us. We love you so much. Ah, shields, take all my money.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, don't say it. They're not paying us. So, Shields, we'll see it.
Speaker 2:We'll see it when they pay us Anyway, yeah, okay, I'm going to skip the landscaping business because I'm really not a landscaper. I'm just out here trying my best. But I will say that we did plant a couple trees on our property and those poor little babies from all the wind are getting a little bit of transplant shock. So I hope they will be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had my window open a minute ago, but I have these storms coming through that are making a lot of noise, so I don't know. May is really a bipolar month. I just weather needs. She just needs to settle down. Come on it, let's go, she does she does.
Speaker 2:You know what else needs to settle down um the aching in my body from all of the um yard work that?
Speaker 1:we did.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh you should see adam's hand. He has a blister in the middle of his palm from all the shoveling oh no, poor babe. And it um bursted open, of course. And then he, he smoked a bunch of meat this weekend too, and then we, like, portioned it all out and freeze it, so it's just ready to grab. And he was cleaning the countertops after portioning all the meat and got some cleaner in his exposed blister. Ow Ooh, no bueno. So anyway, yeah, we're both very sore, but you know what's not sore?
Speaker 1:Hmm, what.
Speaker 2:My feet, Um. So anyway, yeah, we're both very sore, but you know what's?
Speaker 1:not sore. Hmm, what my my feet? Ooh, my feet aren't sore. You want to know?
Speaker 2:why you want to know who I have to thank for this. Who, who? Stan Shoes, stan Shoes. Aw yeah, dogs ain't barking anymore. I got to thank uh Mr, my feet all day, saturday and Sunday. So yes, founded by Rob Gregg after painful 16-hour shifts. He was a postal worker and I can confirm they deliver cloud-like comfort. They have custom ortholite insoles and seven millimeters of arch support. And, unlike athletic shoes that add joint pressure, stan shoes disperse energy to ease strain on the knees, back and feet. They are slip resistant, fluid resistant, machine washable and packed with antimicrobial moisture wicking tech to keep your feet cool and clean. Lab tested as the number one shoe for comfort and pressure relief. Stan plus shoes Stan plus shoes, stand plus shoes. Stand shoes has earned features in forbes and fast company for long shifts, fast recovery or yard work. This foot care is redefined. Visit wwwstandshoescom for 15 off any product with our code.
Speaker 1:Stay suspicious well, that's amazing, thank, amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I agree, stan, shoes are forced to be reckoned with. Definitely need those tootsies to feel good. I don't really have a good segue into today's episode. I will say that I have so many sources that I'm just going to let y'all just look online. There's too many to talk about and similarly, the trigger warning, I don't know. I think I need to be transparent here. Some people are going to not like this episode, maybe. Yeah, amanda and I and correct me if I'm wrong, amanda but we're united in our decision not to engage in political discussions or push our own personal ideologies out there. I feel like I can say that about us.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's not what this podcast is about.
Speaker 2:If you guys knew me personally, I don't politic, I don't like that, and so definitely we don't want to be pushing any personal, whatever Ideas, thoughts, beliefs, anything.
Speaker 1:Right. But we both believe in science. Right For shizzle, yeah. And that healthcare should help and not harm patients. Absolutely, treatment should be evidence based.
Speaker 2:I love me some evidence based practice Period.
Speaker 1:And that's not 24-7.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's not political.
Speaker 1:Correct. That should not be polarizing. But somehow, like during the COVID-19 pandemic, facts based on evidence and scientific consensus have been turned into political fodder, and that feels truer now than ever before.
Speaker 2:So I don't know where we're going with this, but I am buckled, Y'all. I am hearing this firsthand with you. So here we go. You're coming into this blind. I feel like we have we really set the stage here. I don't know what's coming.
Speaker 1:I know I'm like warning everyone. You may be mad at me, but we're gonna talk science people. So this week I wanted to cover something a little more lighthearted. Then my recent deep dives into disturbing truths. You know, a fluffy piece about a nut job who promoted some dodgy vitamins, and that's what I said. That's what I said I'll do honestly. I googled like dodgy vitamins, like I just I was looking for some a fluff piece, but then, oh boy, I found this guy. So I can't catch a break. So the trigger warning is this is the opposite of fluffy, this is heavy. So buckle up while I enlighten you.
Speaker 2:So is this like naturopath type of guy we're talking?
Speaker 1:about Okay.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to just say, Peggy Huey, if you're listening, my acupuncturist at Wellspring Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, If you're listening to this episode, when you get to it I would like to hear your opinions.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, because I am not again. I am not against alternative medicine, naturopathic, holistic care, absolutely not. I am for evidence. If evidence shows that, like you said, you went for acupuncture and it helped you, I mean to me that's like wonderful.
Speaker 2:When Peggy cupped my back and I, magically, was not congested anymore. Hello, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure I didn't even look into it, but I'm sure there's plenty of evidence out there that you know this sort of technique can help in certain situations X amount. But anyway, today we're going to talk about a self-proclaimed health and nutrition guru whose mission for over four decades has been to cure the world of everything that ails it using his natural methods and proprietary supplement cocktails. He's published over 70 books and created 100 full feature documentary films on natural health, self-empowerment and the environment. He hosts the country's longest running nationally syndicated health radio talk show. I'm not, I'm not kidding, you Can't believe.
Speaker 1:I haven't heard of this guy until now. He may not be the most reliable of sources, but he's undoubtedly among the most prolific and loquacious. He has a small but dedicated cult-like following of fans who view him as a prophet. But Gary Null isn't a prophet. He's not even a medical doctor. He has a PhD in human nutrition and for decades he's railed against evidence-based medicine, calling chemotherapy a scam, vaccines dangerous and big pharma a cartel of chemical lies. He promoted natural healing, plant-based diets and a cocktail of supplements that he said could prevent, if not cure, just about anything, including HIV. Oh sure, ironically, dr Noll had a taste of his own medicine in 2010, and it just about killed him. But more on that delicious irony later.
Speaker 1:Let's learn more about the man behind the propaganda, gary, which, if you listen to his radio show, I suspect you'll agree with me that his name is likely short for garrulous, which is basically a hot wind headed person who spews verbal diarrhea salad. Anyway, yeah, he was born on january 6 1945 in parkersburg, west virginia, to parents may slutsky I didn't make that up, folks. That's her name and david no, he grew up in. I'm so sorry. He grew up in Parkersburg, alongside his siblings, robert, mark and Joan. While specific details about his early childhood experiences are limited, it is known that he completed his high school education in Parkersburg. Before pursuing higher education, he earned an associate's degree in business administration from Mountain State College, a two-year for-profit institution in his hometown, and subsequently he obtained a bachelor's degree in human nutrition from Thomas Edison State College, which is now called Thomas Edison State University in New Jersey. New-joy-sy, zo-y-sy. I can't. I can't help myself.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:His interest in nutrition reportedly began while working as a part-time cook in New York City, new York City. By the 1970s, gary Null began making a name for himself on New York radio, especially at WBAI-FM, a progressive station known for its unconventional programming. Listeners tuned in not just for health advice but for a new worldview that challenged the authority of doctors, drug companies and even science itself. In 1989, at age 44, null earned a PhD in human nutrition and public health science from Union Institute and University, a distance learning institution. Keep in mind, folks, that this was in 1989. Distance learning now is a lot different than distance learning when the Internet was barely invented. I'm just saying. His thesis a deep dive into the effects of caffeine on human health. While some question the academic rigor of his degree, it did add a layer of credibility to his growing public persona. But it should be noted that the Union Institute and university later face sanctions for failing to meet academic standards, 13 years after his graduation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not the best school. Really took a long time for that to come around.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I think he just basically bought his degree. So throughout the 1990s, uh, gary Knowles platform exploded. He authored dozens of books, many of them bestsellers. Titles like the Gary Knowull Anti-Aging Program and Get Healthy Now Bang Exclamation point Became staples in the homes of health conscious readers. At the same time, he launched Gary Null and Associates, a business empire offering dietary supplements, detox programs and wellness retreats. He also ventured into filmmaking. His documentaries, such as Deadly Deception and Pesticides on Parade, aired on PBS and further elevated his profile.
Speaker 1:For many he was a revolutionary voice and for others a dangerous demagogue. But Gary Noll wasn't just offering smoothies and vitamin regimens. He had a deeper mission to take down the pillars of modern medicine. He accused the FDA, the CDC and major pharmaceutical companies of collusion. According to Null, they were more interested in profits than public health, and later on we'll talk about how ironic this is. I mean, the hypocrisy here is crazy.
Speaker 1:Gary Null became a multimillionaire based on all of these things that he's doing and promoting, and anyway he never actually ventured into evidence-based anything. But anyway, he took issue with others who did this not himself For sure. So he questioned the safety of prescription drugs and he railed against the overuse of surgery and, most controversially, he opposed vaccination programs. His skepticism soon morphed into full-blown vaccine denialism and he aligned himself with fringe movements questioning the validity of the HIV-AIDS epidemic. These claims, widely debunked and discredited by the global medical community, cost lives and cost Null whatever support he may have had from traditional science. You'll notice that I have a bit of bias against this man right off the bat, so let me share with you some of the detrimental viewpoints that Gazzer has been spewing over the years, which I take umbrage. The worst and the most damaging viewpoints are about treatment of cancer, vaccines and HIV AIDS. Okay, cancer, let's go to cancer.
Speaker 1:According to his book titled no More Cancer A Complete Guide to Preventing, treating and Overcoming Cancer. Okay, so Null claims that he can cure cancer with nutrition and supplements. He backs his arguments with alarming statistics. According to the latest estimates, 41 of americans will be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetimes and 21 percent will die from the disease. I looked up the the statistics and this is true, but he harps on the billions of dollars spent on cancer research, stating that survival rates for most cancers remain disappointingly low. But when you look at the data from 1991 to 2022, the US cancer death rate decreased by 34%. So we're making progress, folks, in cancer prevention, diagnosis and treatment. Null has long advocated for unconventional approaches to cancer treatment. He promotes a holistic regimen that includes plant-based diets, detoxification, high-dose vitamin supplementation and various unproven therapies, often positioning these methods as suppressed cures by mainstream medicine Big bad medicine. Null strongly believes that all cancer, all cancer, comes from exposure to toxins in the environment and from our diets. That's his belief.
Speaker 2:Okay, hashtag what's her face? Starvation heights Right, I mean these two, linda Hazard.
Speaker 1:Oh God, yeah, Match made in heaven. He emphasizes a vegan or vegetarian diet rich in organic fruits and vegetables, suggesting that such diets can detoxify the body and bolster the immune system, along with high doses of vitamins. But they have to be gassers vitamins, minerals and herbal extracts asserting that these can correct nutritional deficiencies and combat cancer cells. And then also, like your starvation station lady, he recommends methods like coffee enemas, didn't she Wasn't she into like juice fasting she? Methods like coffee enemas, didn't she wasn't she into like juice fasting?
Speaker 2:coffee, hour-long enemas, yeah.
Speaker 1:Vegetable broth, yeah why would I want my coffee up there? Can't even. Okay, uh, juice. Fasting to cleanse the, to cleanse people of purported toxins, okay. And then he's also promoted therapies such as Gerson therapy, which involves strict dietary regimens in enemas, and hydrazine sulfate, which is a chemical compound once studied for cancer treatment but lacks substantial scientific support. Gerson therapy is a regimen involving strict diet, coffee, enemas and supplements. This therapy has been associated with serious health complications, including infections and electrolyte imbalances, and has been linked to patient death. Hydrazine sulfate is a chemical compound once studied for cancer, but again, it doesn't have any scientific background. There's no support that it's actually effective. Nevertheless, null promoted the substance in his writings, despite its classification as ineffective and potentially dangerous by the National Cancer Institute. I mean, but I can see why people would buy into a theory that if you cleanse your body of toxins, and you eat well and you improve your diet for health.
Speaker 1:Here's what the broader medical community have been concerned about with Knoll's methods the lack of scientific evidence, as we talked about, many treatments that he advocates lack rigorous clinical trials to substantiate their efficacy and safety. Some recommended practices, like high-dose vitamin intake and specific detox procedures, can pose health risks or interfere with conventional treatments and misinformation. Critics argue that promoting unproven therapies may lead patients to forgo evidence-based treatments, potentially worsening their outcomes. And while no specific fatalities have been directly attributed to Null's advice, the broader concern lies in the potential for harm when patients choose alternative therapies over conventional treatment. For instance, jessica Ainscough, an Australian wellness blogger, opted for Gerson therapy over medical treatment for her rare cancer, and she died at age 29. And there's more to that story Her mother followed in her footsteps and also died of cancer for going treatment and doing the nutrition and wellness route. So I guess the advice at the end of this is anyone as a patient, just consult a qualified healthcare professional when you're looking at all your treatment options.
Speaker 2:And look at all the treatment options. Yeah, look at all of them, not just hear about one and like, oh, that sounds fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm not here to say, you know, when you're looking at the side effects of chemotherapy versus quality of life. That's not what this is about. It's about, you know, she was 29.
Speaker 2:She had her whole life ahead of her, like and like maybe chemotherapy wouldn't have worked anyway and that would have ended up being the same result. But like, did she know about both options? Or did she just think yeah, you know, vitamins sound obviously easier?
Speaker 1:Did she believe in, yeah, in the promises that the unclaimed prompt? That's. The problem is that you're out there saying you can cure your cancer. It's not like, well, you can die with dignity and comfort without dealing with chemo. It was no, you can cure your cancer. Take my supplement. I mean honestly, it's disgusting. It's disgusting to me, but it's anyway All right. We'll come back to supplements later.
Speaker 1:But another thing that I take umbrage with Gazza about is his take on vaccines. So he's been vocally critical of vaccines for decades and his skepticism stems from concerns about the safety and how. He distrusts pharmaceutical companies and regulatory agencies and that he purports that natural health approaches will be better than vaccination. So he argues that vaccines have not undergone rigorous testing to ensure safety. He contends that the cumulative effects of multiple vaccines administered according to the CDC schedule have not been adequately studied, particularly regarding long-term health outcomes. He also highlights reports of adverse reactions, suggesting that these are underreported and not thoroughly investigated. A central theme in his critique is the alleged connection between vaccines and autism. He references studies and anecdotal reports that claim to show a correlation between vaccination and the development of autism spectrum disorders. Null emphasizes the presence of substances like thimerosal, which is a mercury-containing preservative and aluminum adjuvants in vaccines, which he believes may contribute to neurological issues. So let's look at this.
Speaker 1:The claim that vaccines cause autism have been thoroughly debunked by extensive scientific research over two decades. So where did this all start? That vaccines cause autism? And, listeners, I swear I'm going to do an episode on this because there's a lot more to this. But the claim originated in 1998 with a now retracted study by Andrew Wakefield.
Speaker 1:Andrew Wakefield is an absolute waste of space who published in the Lancet in 1998, and he deliberately, with motive, with personal motive, for personal greed and gain, he falsely linked the MMR vaccine which, listeners, is measles, mumps and rubella to autism in 12 children. This study was discredited for so many violations ethical violations, methodological flaws, undisclosed conflicts of interest, and I promise you we will take 60 minutes to talk about this whole thing, because it is fascinating the lengths that some human beings will go for personal profit and acclaim will go for personal profit and acclaim. So, anyway, in 2010, he was stripped of his medical license by the UK's General Medical Council. In 2004, the Institute of Medicine reviewed all available data and found no credible evidence that vaccines cause autism. In 2014, the Vaccine Journal performed a meta-analysis examining data from over. Are you ready for this? Remember Wakefield's study was 12 children.
Speaker 1:Okay, the vaccine study was 1.25 million children. Okay, Do you think one study is maybe a little bit more robust than the other, even if it hadn't been created for profit in the pocket? Okay so, 1.25 million children. There was no association between vaccines, including MMR, and those containing thimerosal and autism. And then there was a Danish cohort study which was published in 2019 in the Annals of Internal Medicine and included over 650,000 children and concluded there was no increased risk of autism after MMR vaccination, even among high risk groups.
Speaker 1:Ok, so what about thimerosal? Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative, but it was removed from most childhood vaccines once we figured out that it wasn't a good thing in the US by 2001. Autism rates continued to rise even after removal of thimerosal, which strongly suggests that there's no causal link. Numerous studies have shown no connection between thimerosal and autism. The CDC, the World Health Organization, the National Institutes of Health, the American Academy of Pediatrics and every central health authority in the world agree that vaccines do not cause autism. Instead, vaccine rates have declined, the incidence of preventable diseases have risen, and time and money and efforts have been diverted away from the efforts to understand the real causes of autism and how to help children and families live with it. So again, more on that for an episode that I'm most certainly doing about the whole Wakefield autism vaccine issue. But Null expresses deep skepticism towards pharmaceutical companies, accusing them of prioritizing profits over public health. He also criticizes regulatory agencies like the CDC and the FDA, alleging they have conflicts of interest due to financial ties with the vaccine manufacturers.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Null, have you looked at yourself, listen, look in the mirror. What are you doing? I can't even so. He points to the. I'm so angry. Null points to the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, which established the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program as evidence of the government's acknowledgement of vaccine risks and its efforts to shield manufacturers from liability. Null suggests that a strong immune system supported by natural means, especially Gary Null's means, is more effective and safer than vaccination.
Speaker 1:Hello, there's been a lot of research about the safety and efficacy of vaccines in preventing infectious disease. You know this isn't new. Major health organizations, including the CDC, who and FDA, support vaccination as a critical component of public health, and I can't believe we're having to talk about this and you know what I was talking about this as if it was a historical story. You know something happened in the past. Of course we all know this now, right? Oh no, a couple weeks ago, an apparent policy change appeared in a statement to the Washington Post, in which a Health and Human Services spokesperson told the paper that all new vaccines will undergo safety testing in placebo-controlled trials prior to licensure, which is a radical departure from past practices. I'm sorry, this is totally confusing, especially experts who said vaccines aimed at new pathogens have always been tested this way. Quote that's been true of every new vaccine ever, said Paul Offit, md of Children's Hospital Philadelphia. For those of us in the know, we commonly call CHOP, chop, chop, and they told us to MedPage today. I can't think of a single vaccine in the United States that has truly a new vaccine. They're not an improvement of an existing vaccine, in which case if it's brand new, you have to test it against a placebo, but if it's an improvement on an existing vaccine, you have to test it against the existing vaccine. Some examples of newer vaccines evaluated in placebo-controlled trials include the respiratory syncytial virus vaccines abrizvo, orexi and mresvia, shingles vaccine shingrix, the pneumococcal vaccine prevnar13, and the human papillomavirus vaccine, gardasil. Notably. The world watched as novel COVID-19 vaccines were evaluated against placebos, and yet Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F Kennedy Jr doubled down on his allegations during a Senate hearing last week, claiming that the only vaccine that's been tested in a full-blown placebo trial against an inert placebo was the COVID vaccine. The other 76 shots that children in this country receive between birth and 18 years old, none of them has ever been safely tested in pre-licensing studies against a placebo, which means we don't understand the risk profile for these products, and that's something I intend to remedy. Okay, let's unpack this.
Speaker 1:Experts say it's generally unethical to do placebo-controlled studies when improving on vaccines that already exist, because that would deny control patients protection against preventable illness. There are certain exceptions that can be made, however. So Steve Joffe, md MPH, a bioethicist and pediatric oncologist at the University of Pennsylvania, said there are generally two starting points for considering placebo-controlled vaccine trials. If there's no vaccine for the disease, it's good to develop it against placebo, he said. If there's a proven vaccine, you have to take into account other factors like how severe is the disease? What's the risk of getting the disease If it's very serious, and especially if there's already something on the market? You wouldn't want to withhold that from people, jaffe said. However, he said he could imagine a placebo-controlled trial in which researchers aim to examine an immune response after a short time period, like six, eight or 12 weeks, and then all participants receive the vaccine. So then comparisons can be made between an immediate versus a delayed group. But outside of a pandemic and very serious illness, the risks of delaying a vaccine to look at immune responses seem fine, he said. On the other hand, using infection as the endpoint wouldn't work in the short or long term. He said With measles for instance, we know we can prevent measles with the vaccine. He said, if we give kids placebo and give them the opportunity to go on and get measles, that just seems incredibly wrong. So a placebo-controlled trial of measles, mumps and rubella just isn't necessary, said Jaffe. I don't see any reason why you would have to test the combination against placebo when you know the individual components are highly effective. Currently there are two MMR vaccines on the market MMR2 from Merck and Prioryx from GlaxoSmithKline. Both companies also make a four antigen version, make a four-antigen version that includes varicella as well. Musel's, mumps and rubella vaccines have been individually evaluated in randomized control trials in the 50s and 60s according to the gold standard textbook in vaccine science called Plotkin's, co-authored by Stanley Plotkin MD, paul Offit MD, walter Orenstein MD and Catherine Edwards MD.
Speaker 1:The first version of the measles vaccine, the Edmonston B vaccine, developed by John Enders, phd, and colleagues, was licensed in the US in 1963 after being evaluated ina seven-part series published in 1960 in the New England Journal of Medicine. This series included studies where vaccinated children were compared with unvaccinated ones. This measles vaccine had a high rate of fever and rash and was often paired with a dose of intravenous immunoglobulin to mitigate those effects. In 1968, it was replaced with a strain that attenuated the side effects and was developed by famous vaccinologist Maurice Hilleman, phd, and it's the one still used in the MMR vaccine today. Used in the MMR vaccine today.
Speaker 1:Side note Maurice Ralph Hilleman, 1919 to 2005. He was one of the greatest microbiologists, vaccinologists of all time. He played a key role in developing vaccines for Asian flu in 1957 and Hong Kong flu in 1968. Over six decades, most of which were spent at Merck and Company, his leadership and innovations blazed new trails in virology, epidemiology, immunology, cancer research and vaccine development that were unmatched. His work resulted in current vaccines used for the prevention of measles, mumps, hepatitis A and B, chickenpox, meningitis and pneumonia, which has saved millions of lives across the globe.
Speaker 1:For the mumps vaccine, two randomized placebo-controlled trials in the late 1960s showed that it worked and it's the same vaccine that's in use today. Known as the Gerald Lynn strain, it was named for Hillman's daughter, from whom he collected a sample when she had the disease to isolate the virus. It was originally licensed in the US in 1967. Three rubella vaccines were licensed in the US by 1970, including the Sendahill vaccine that was evaluated in a placebo-controlled trial. Ultimately, however, that vaccine was later replaced with the RA27 slash 3 vaccine, which is included in the MMR vaccine today. Extensive data on that latter vaccine, which was developed by Plotkin and colleagues, was reported in 1969 in the Journal of American Medical Association Pediatrics. The combination MMR vaccine was initially approved in 1971, with an updated version in 1978 that included Plotkin's improved rubella strain.
Speaker 1:The biggest measure of success for the MMR vaccines is that the incidence of all three diseases decreased sharply after the vaccines were introduced. As for safety, experts interviewed for the story said they were extremely confident in the system set up to monitor vaccine safety. These are chiefly the FDA's Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, vaers, v-a-e-r-s, and the CDC's Vaccine Safety Data, vsd. Vaers allows anyone to report an issue, so it's best used for generating hypotheses, said Walter Orenstein MD, former director of the National Immunization Program, now the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the CDC. On the other hand, vsd enrolls 11 sites that provide electronic health record data enabling comparisons of the incidence of a given clinical syndrome in vaccinees versus non-vaccinees.
Speaker 1:Orenstein told MedPage Today If it's statistically significantly higher in vaccinees it could imply causation. He gave the example of the original rotavirus vaccine, rotashield, for which problems were first detected by VAERS. Researchers subsequently conducted studies that showed a higher incidence of bowel obstruction in vaccinated children compared with non-vaccinated kids. So the intestinal obstruction was rare, occurring in about one of 10,000 vaccinated kids but it was still deemed too great a risk. I mean, one in 10,000 kids is going to have constipation. So not only was that vaccine removed from the market, but it led to a requirement for larger studies to assess bowel obstruction risks, eventually resulting in a safer rotavirus vaccine that's now on the market, which is called Rotatec.
Speaker 1:In addition, when the oral polio vaccine was found to cause 8 to 10 cases of paralysis per year in the US, recommendations were changed to revert to the use of the pricier inactivated polio vaccine. This happened at a cost of about $300,000 per case of vaccine-associated paralytic polio prevented. But we put a premium on safety, said Orenstein. He also cited the AIDS vaccine, more specifically, the lack of an AIDS vaccine, as evidence that the current system for evaluating vaccine safety and effectiveness works. The HIV virus was detected more than 40 years ago and the thinking was that we would have a vaccine within a couple of years, said Orenstein. Yet none of them have been found to be safe and effective enough to get approval. So we still don't have an AIDS vaccine today. So the existence of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program acknowledges that there can be real side effects of vaccines. Orenstein added. The program was developed after a major increase in lawsuits against manufacturers, oftentimes frivolous, which led to vaccine shortages in the 1980s. When someone's vaccinated, they're not only helping themselves but they're helping their community, said Orenstein. Society owes an obligation to someone who's actually injured by a vaccine. So, given all of these safeguards, jaffe says he's very confident in our systems for developing and testing vaccines.
Speaker 1:All right, we're on to HIV AIDS. Today, over 39 million people around the world are living with HIV. Today, over 39 million people around the world are living with HIV and for many it's a manageable condition thanks to decades of research, antiretroviral treatment and public health campaigns. Gary Null has been one of the most prominent HIV AIDS denialists in America. Here's a quote from his radio show Quote I've said for decades now HIV does not cause AIDS. Period, that's a myth propagated by the pharmaceutical cartel. End quote Null claims that HIV is just a harmless passenger virus, not the cause of AIDS, and antiretroviral drugs are just poison. But this isn't fringe science, it's disinformation and it's cost lives. So to understand how we got there, let's rewind. It's 1981. Doctors in New York and Los Angeles begin reporting mysterious immune failures in young men, and soon it's clear we're looking at a new epidemic.
Speaker 1:By 1984, scientists identify the cause HIV, the human immunodeficiency virus but not everyone accepted it. Gary Null wasn't alone. He echoed voices like Peter Duesberg, a once-respected molecular biologist who turned conspiracy theorist. They claimed HIV was a scapegoat and that AIDS was really caused by malnutrition, recreational drugs and stress. These ideas were seductive. They offered hope to the hopeless and they aligned with a broader mistrust of government, pharma and medicine, especially in marginalized communities. But they were also wrong, dead wrong. By the mid-1990s the evidence was overwhelming HIV attacks the body's immune system by destroying CD4 T-cells, and without treatment, the immune system collapses, leading to opportunistic infections and death.
Speaker 1:And with that, dear listeners, um, welcome to the chart note segment where we learn about healthcare and medicine. Um, I just wanted to cause. It's been a hot minute since I've figured out, you know, or since since we've talked about some of these things, uh, at least in my life, since we've talked about some of these things, at least in my life, and so I wanted to offer a refresher about what CD4 plus T cells are and basically a little bit more about the HIV infection and how it relates to AIDS. So the CD4 T cells, or helper cells, are one type of lymphocyte that helps coordinate the immune response against infection and disease. They interact and activate other cells in the immune system.
Speaker 1:The immune system is incredibly complex and contains many different components. Cells that make up the immune system include lymphocytes, macrophages, neutrophils and dendritic cells. These cells target pathogens, disease-causing agents and other foreign substances. T-cells are lymphocytes and there are three distinct classes of them. There's the cytotoxic CD8 T-cells, the helper CD4 T-cells and the regulatory CD4 T-cells. The type of protein on the surface of the T-cell differentiates them, so we're going to talk about the role of helper T-cells in health and disease. So, while they have no direct involvement in neutralizing foreign substances, cd4 T-cells have various functions that help produce a vigorous immune response. Though various subsets of them exist, they primarily activate other immune cells. So some CD4 T cells can become activated and form memory T cells. These are important for the body to maintain long-term immunity against infection. So, basically, remember who to fight.
Speaker 1:Measuring a person's CD4 T cell may help diagnose HIV. This virus directly invades CD4 T-cells and replicates within them. As the virus replicates, it slowly destroys the CD4 T-cells and weakens the immune system's ability to fight off other infections. The several types of CD4 T-cells have different functions. They are the helper cell which we just talked about, the Th1. These coordinate the immune responses against pathogens within the cell, for example bacteria. So Th1 produces cytokines, proteins that act on the immune system or directly destroy pathogens. The T helper cell 2, or TH2, coordinates immune responses against pathogens outside the body cell, for example helminths, which are parasitic worms or really bad punk band helminths. Th2 also produces cytokines which activate other lymphocytes and regulate allergic reactions. And then the T helper cell 17 produces interleukin 17, which is a signaling molecule that activates other immune cells. And Th17 helps protect the body from extracellular bacteria and fungi present outside the body cells. And then there are regulatory T-cells that monitor and suppress other immune responses, helping prevent autoimmune issues and maintain homeostasis.
Speaker 1:Memory CD4 T-cells are beneficial to maintaining a person's immunity. They evolve from naive CD4 T-cells, which are precursors to memory cells, and they can recognize and target germs the body has encountered before. However, the second time the body encounters the germ, it produces a faster and stronger response. So a germ or antigen activates a naive CD4 T cell to start the transformation. And the activation happens when a naive CD4 T cell interacts with another immune cell known as an antigen presenting cell. The antigen presenting cells sit within the lymph nodes. They're specialized cells with the ability to recognize and process germs. So CD4 T cells can easily recognize antigens as atypical and then become activated. And once they activate it's like stranger danger.
Speaker 2:I know I'm thinking like this is so cute.
Speaker 1:They're like let's get him guys. The naive CD4 T cells divide, forming multiple clones, and some of these clones become memory cells and they produce cytokines that activate other immune cells, whereas naive CD4 T cells cannot. So typically memory. Cd4 T cells remain dormant in the body until they recognize a previously encountered germ and then they're activated. Okay so CD4 T cells and HIV. Remember, hiv targets CD4 T cells, so when the virus binds to one of these cells, it takes control of the machinery within the cell and uses it to replicate. This process causes the death of the CD4 T-cell and other immune cells, leading to an impaired immune system and a weakened defense against infection. So measuring CD4 T-cells circulating in the blood provides valuable information about how well the immune system functions, especially in people with HIV. So because HIV destroys CD4 T-cells, healthcare professionals can use CD4 cell levels to monitor HIV progression and AIDS. A typical CD4 cell count is between 500 and 1500 cells per cubic millimeter. When a person's CD4 count falls below 200 cells per cubic millimeter, they receive an AIDS diagnosis. So this is the connection. This is absolutely.
Speaker 1:Hiv can lead to AIDS and does so if a person does not have HIV. A lower CD4T cell count may occur due to infection or certain medications. All right back to the case. So enter antiretroviral therapy, or ART. Antiretroviral therapy works by slowing the progression of HIV and keeping CD4 levels stable. Art targets different steps in the HIV replication cycle, inhibiting or stopping its spread within the body.
Speaker 1:Suddenly, aids was no longer a death sentence and millions were saved. Dr Anthony Fauci was quoted as saying with the proper treatment, people with HIV can live full, productive lives. But Gary Noll called ART toxic lives. But Gary Null called ART toxic. He blamed AZT, which was an early on drug with real side effects, for making patients sicker and he sold his own alternatives supplements, vitamins, detox regimens and immune support protocols. But spoiler there's no evidence that any of his alternative solutions work. His beliefs weren't just controversial, they were dangerous. Take South Africa In the early 2000s, then-president Thabo Mbeki, influenced by HIV denialists, delayed rollout of life-saving drugs and the result was an estimated 300,000 preventable deaths.
Speaker 1:And here in the United States, stories of patients refusing treatment, sometimes after listening to figures like Knowles, aren't hard to find. This isn't theoretical. Hiv denialism kills. Gary Knowles' AIDS denial is just one chapter in a larger story. He's cast doubt on vaccines claimed to have natural cancer cures and promotes conspiracy theories about the medical system. He says he's empowering people with information, but in reality, he's selling distrust and his supplements. He's not just anti-science, he's building a brand and you might think, like well, it's 2025, who still believes this? But misinformation never really dies. It evolves. So today, hiv denial echoes in anti-vax rhetoric, covid conspiracies and natural cure movements. It all feeds from the same source distrust in science and the promise of a simpler truth. Gary Null didn't create that distress, but he capitalized on it and people died because of it. So, listeners, if you or someone you love is living with HIV, just know this the science is strong, the treatments are real and the future is hopeful. Don't let misinformation steal that from you.
Speaker 1:Now let's shift our focus on Gary's miracle products, specifically his nutritional supplements. So in April 2010, something ironic happened and, as I alluded to in the beginning of the episode, gary Null was nearly killed by his own supplement Shame. The product was called Gary Null's Ultimate Power Meal and was a dietary supplement marketed as a comprehensive meal replacement, designed to provide essential nutrients, support energy levels and promote overall health. It was promoted as a convenient way to obtain a wide array of vitamins, minerals and other nutrients. You know, what's convenient for me is to actually eat a meal, like who wants to take a pill instead of eating a meal. I mean, my stomach would be so sad.
Speaker 2:I know right. Actually my stomach would be so pissed because I'm very sensitive stomach and if I take any sort of vitamin on an empty stomach your girl is sick.
Speaker 1:I know, and there's something about like, eating is pleasurable and, uh, I need to chew, you know anyway. Okay, it's convenient not to be able to eat. That's gross. Uh, he promoted it as an anti-aging supplement, promising health and vigor to all who consumed it. So the production of Gary Knoll's Ultimate Power Meal was contracted to Triarcho Industries, a New Jersey-based supplement manufacturer. Triarcho's role was pivotal in the formulation and blending of the product's ingredients, as well as ensuring compliance with manufacturing specifications provided by Knoll's company.
Speaker 1:However, the process broke down in ways that had serious consequences. Triarco was responsible for sourcing and blending the raw ingredients, including vitamins, minerals and plant-based compounds, according to specifications set by Gary Null's team. As the contract manufacturer, triarco was expected to verify the dosages and safety of the ingredients through standard quality control protocols, including lab testing and validation of nutrient levels. They also handled the physical packaging of the products. But in 2010, a critical error occurred, which failed to properly dilute or measure the vitamin D additive during production, so this meant the vitamin D content was over a thousand times higher than stated on the label. It was supposed to be the pinnacle of his work a powdered supplement full of vitamins, minerals and Gary Null's personal guarantee. He said it would energize you heal your gut, boost your immune system. And, of course, he used it himself every day until he started getting sick. We're talking fatigue, nausea, intense body pain, headaches, kidney problems. And he wasn't alone. At least six other customers were hospitalized with similar symptoms, and they all had one thing in common the ultimate power meal.
Speaker 2:You can't call that a meal, people.
Speaker 1:I know it's not a meal. Come on, get yeah.
Speaker 2:Food is medicine people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think I read something once where the actual act of chewing releases not endorphins but releases a chemical that maybe it's I want to say gremlin, it's something that starts with a G, that's like a hormone that makes you feel satiated. It's not a gremlin, it doesn't release the gremlin. But okay, that's going to be another medical. What do I call it? Correction corner next week.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Anyway, the lab tests revealed that every serving of Null's product contained more than 2 million international units of vitamin D. 2 million. So what's the recommended daily amount? 600. Yeah, he accidentally or negligently given his customers and himself over 2000 times this daily dose of vitamin D. So vitamin D toxicity leads to high calcium levels in the blood, kidney stress, confusion, vomiting, bone pain. Poor Gazer was hospitalized for weeks and he suffered internal bleeding and damaged his kidneys.
Speaker 1:And here's the irony the man who said modern medicine was killing people was saved by modern medicine. Of course, he didn't take any responsibility. He blamed the manufacturer entirely and and filed a 10 million dollar lawsuit, uh, claiming that they botched the formulation and failed to notify him of the change. But here's the catch null is listed as the sole formulator on the label. So he marketed himself as the expert behind every ingredient. And while he claimed ignorance, his customers sued him saying he should have tested the product and warned them sooner. During the legal proceedings he amended his complaint and removed all personal injury claims. The amended lawsuit focused solely on reputational harm to his business. The outcome of the lawsuit was not publicly available and there was no information that I could find that it actually went to trial and there's no documents or details that I could find that it actually went to trial and there's no documents or details that I could find on any settlement or judgment. But in the court of public opinion, gary Knoll exposed something even more dangerous than overdose vitamins he exposed a system where no one is checking.
Speaker 1:In 2011, the family of Helen Shulman, an 89-year-old woman from New Jersey. She filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Gary and several associated companies. The suit alleged that Schulman's death was caused by consuming his ultimate power meal. According to the lawsuit, she consumed the supplement over a three-month period, which led to kidney failure and heart damage due to vitamin D toxicity. The complaint stated that each serving of the supplement contained at least a million international units of vitamin D, vastly exceeding the recommended daily allowance of a thousand. So this excessive dosage allegedly resulted in hypercalcemia and subsequent organ failure, culminating in her death in July 2011. So the family lawsuit highlighted concerns again about the safety and regulation of dietary supplements, particularly those marketed by prominent figures in the alternative health industry. The case underscored potential risks associated with unregulated supplement dosages and the importance of accurate labeling and quality control in the supplement industry.
Speaker 1:So the king of remedies was brought down by the very supplements he championed. And yet even this didn't slow him down. In the 2010s, he launched more documentaries War on Health, silent Epidemic, deadly Lies. He continued hosting programs on his progressive radio network, pushing veganism, detox cleanses and a distrust of anything labeled FDA approved. Despite the criticism, he maintained a loyal audience To them.
Speaker 1:He was a prophet speaking uncomfortable truths. To scientists, he was a peddler of pseudoscience and to skeptics, a symbol of the dark intersection between wellness, culture and misinformation. Today, he remains a prolific author and commentator. His name is synonymous with the health movement that sees medicine as a battleground and big pharma as the enemy. He's been called a wellness guru, a fear monger and a scam artist, and one thing is clear he's never backed down, whether he saved lives or endangered them, changed minds or manipulated them. The story of Gary Null is a cautionary tale about charisma without accountability and the price we pay when truth becomes subjective. For Gary, the fear mongering business has been lucrative. A quick Google search estimates his net worth is around $8 million today. Also on Google was a listing from 2021 for a $9.5 million mansion in southwest Florida that sits on 15.1 acres of land on which he planted over 200 varieties of trees.
Speaker 2:I bet they don't have transplant shock like mine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the landscape includes 60 foot high strands of bamboo, a gazebo, jogging paths, tennis courts, swimming pools and a large pond with hundreds of Japanese koi, water features and meditation gardens. The 13,000 square foot home also has a guest house on the estate. It sounds like paradise, and when asked why he was selling the place, null stated they had no one to share it with anymore. Huh, Sad, I guess money can't buy everything, right, gaz? So what have we learned about nutritional supplements? Well, under US law, dietary supplements aren't regulated like drugs. The FDA does not test them for safety before they hit the market, and companies can sell pills, powders and cleanses without proving they work or are safe. Gary Null wasn't the first to exploit that system, but he might have been the first to almost die from his very own brand. In the end he survived his toxic brew, but the case left a lingering aftertaste. When the line between healer and salesman disappears, who's watching what we swallow?
Speaker 1:And with that I wanted to give some resources for listeners on how to research supplements and I'm going to post these on our show notes, but basically a list of websites to be able to look up the National Institute of Health website about the facts between the vitamins, minerals and other supplements, as well as research summaries and safety information. And then the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health that provides evidence-based information on supplements and alternative health practices, as well as ConsumerLabcom, which they independently test supplements for quality, purity and label accuracy. And then some information about how to read and understand supplement labels, where to report any adverse effects. And just final note always approach supplements with a critical eye. Just because a product is labeled natural or doctor formulated doesn't mean it's safe or effective. Educate yourself and use trustworthy sources. That's the best way to protect your health. Once again, I'm on a soapbox.
Speaker 2:Thank you for bringing that to heart. No, for real, though I didn't know, there was no regulations on things like that.
Speaker 2:That's very scary right and how you said at the end um like, just because a label says this, that's true for everything. Guys like labels on food things in like the health aisle at the grocery store I know this is not vitamins, but you know what I mean where it's like oh, blah, blah, blah, power bar will bring you. It's like you can't trust a label. So please go look at these websites that she is going to post in the show notes to know what you are putting in your body do you think it's time to cheer up with a little bit of a medical mishap?
Speaker 2:Do I ever? Also, I wanted to make a little side note because I was watching our recording. Obviously, I didn't talk a lot, but it's been thundering like crazy here, and did you hear it? Oh, but sometimes it made a little blip on my thing, so maybe if you guys hear it, that's thunder.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, let's make things, uh that just reminds me of our trip to vegas, where it was. What is it thunder down under? I mean, we didn't go see them, I was gonna say I didn't go to that we did not everyone mom, dad.
Speaker 2:We did not no, we went to cirque du Soleil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was awesome that was awesome.
Speaker 1:That was really good, and we did some zip lining.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that was so fun.
Speaker 1:We need to do that again. Amanda, yeah, somebody needs to have a birthday milestone. Well, anyway, let's talk medical mishaps. Um, I did not write this one down because I wanted to surprise amanda, because this one baby girl is about the two of us, just the two of us us, okay. So, um, I don't know, was this 10 years ago?
Speaker 2:I already know what you're talking about, because what other mishap could?
Speaker 1:deal with both of us.
Speaker 2:So yes, listeners, you've guessed it we used to work in clinic together and, my god, how lucky were our patients. I was kidding, we had fun.
Speaker 1:So when she was a baby audiologist, she was working as an audiology assistant and I was teaching Amanda some stuff about vestibular balance evaluations.
Speaker 2:And that no assistant in the entire world had any business knowing. But I was like tell me more, Let me do the things, Let me do hands on with you.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why you're such an awesome audiologist and that's why you weren't going to be an assistant for long. Exactly, so I um. So one of the things we do is we, we, we do something called caloric irrigations where we um, it sounds really horrible, but we, and it probably is. But we irrigate patient's ears with hot and then cold water, because the change in temperature changes the density of the inner ear fluid, which activates the vestibular system and makes you feel like you're moving. So, so you picture this, so, and we're doing this to figure out, you know, so you picture this, and we're doing this to figure out the strength of that response, which is a normal response, to feel like you're moving and the world's spinning around you, and compare one ear to the other to see if they're equally strong or if one's weaker than the other. So we do this. The patient's lying at a 30-degree angle, we're in the dark, we're in the dark, we're in the dark. They have a set of infrared goggles on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we got to place yeah, and they have a towel on their shoulder in case we get splashy with it. And then there's like this hose with a little tube and we hold like a barf thing. Emesis, it's one of the kidney beans, emesis. Yeah, we hold like a barf thing, emesis.
Speaker 2:It's an emesis. It's one of the kidney beans emesis. Yeah, we hold that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of those kidney-shaped bowls under their ear, and then we put this little tube in and we hit a trigger and we irrigate their ear for 30 seconds and then watch them spin.
Speaker 2:And the whole time we're yelling eyes open, Keep your eyes open.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that we can record our eye movements of them spinning around.
Speaker 2:And they're like.
Speaker 1:Not loving it maybe as much as.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not fun. So I'm teaching Amanda this I'm up on this higher stool and I've got the basin under the patient's ear of water and then I have a bucket where I finish fill. You know, once you finish the irrigation it fills up this emesis basin. And then I reach over and pour that water that just came out of the patient's ear into this bucket next to me because we've got to do another one of a different temperature right? So sometimes, you know, in the process of doing this, you can get some chunky water.
Speaker 1:Let's just you know, let's just explain. We start out with the warm water and it pulls a lot of crap out of the patient's ear canal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it clears some things out, guys. It's a chunky monkey situation. We use a joke, it's a free ear cleaning, okay yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm on a higher stool and I'm holding, I'm holding I can't even talk about this without laughing but I'm holding the bowl, the emesis basin and the trigger wand with the little plastic tube. And in between these irrigations we've got to wait for the water to change temperatures. So we just did a hot one, we just did a hot water, and I have to wait for the tank to change to cool before I can then irrigate cool water in the patient's ear. And one of my long-term habits is to just kind of just take my finger and flick the tube that goes into the patient ear, just to kind of flick any remaining water out of it, because I don't want it to affect the temperature change.
Speaker 1:All right, so this is something I normally do. So we are holding the bowl, we're irrigating for 30 seconds. Patient's getting dizzy, we're talking to them, I've got an emesis basin full of chunky wax water and a wand and I'm just sitting there talking and Amanda is like to the right of me on a lower stool, eagerly just devouring everything because she wants to do it all herself, because she really wanted to be an audiologist.
Speaker 2:So she Look at me now. Hey, look at me now.
Speaker 1:So we finish an irrigation and I turn and flick the remaining water out of the tube that has just been in this patient's ear and it's particularly chunky and she is sitting on a stool looking up at me and, by the way, I know this is chunky because I I saw the bin.
Speaker 1:I know it's bad at the very moment, dear listeners, that I decide to flick the tube of water that had been in the patient's ear. She opens her mouth to ask me a question, but she opens it wide and I do the flick and the water goes and it enters her mouth and she looks at me but she doesn't know where the water came from. She's wondering did it come from the tube where the fresh water comes, or did it come from the basin of chunky earwax?
Speaker 2:water. I don't even know what you were trying to talk to me. All I could think was basin or tube. I was not even listening to anything coming out of her mouth.
Speaker 1:She starts gasping like a fish out of water. She starts yelling I'm laughing so hard I need to go to the bathroom, like seriously, seriously needed to go use the restroom. I'm weeing myself people, in fact I did a little and she cause. She's gasping at me, desperate to hear where did that water come from, and so she's yelling at me basin or tube, basin or tube. Meanwhile the patient is there, like we have to be all professional.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I wasn't. Yeah, it was like a professional basin or tube, basin or tube.
Speaker 1:Did I put her out of her misery? No, I did not.
Speaker 2:I was more interested in getting to the bathroom before things were going to get too dire and I was like wondering if I was going to be gagging on chunks of shit in my mouth.
Speaker 1:So I put everything down and raced off to the bathroom and left her in the dark, Forever in the dark. So the answer is dear.
Speaker 2:Amanda, that it was the tube.
Speaker 1:I know the answer by now, so that's our medical news after the week.
Speaker 2:I uh obviously went on to become an audiologist myself, you know, and I had to do uh vestibular testing at the hospital I worked at and I also was a tube flicker.
Speaker 1:So you know what carried that with me oh god, just a look of horror in your face okay, well, can you blame me? This poor patient was clueless, like what's happening? What's happening to me? No, they were just so dizzy. Anyway, it's all fun and games and then you become a professional.
Speaker 2:We were super professional through this entire change. Wait, what does?
Speaker 1:that say about me. I already was an audiologist One of my favorite moments in clinic honestly Okay, and in spite of all that, you still went on to be a stellar provider, so I didn't keep you from it. That's the good news, but one of the reasons why I was able to sit in the dark and stay awake after lunch and test people for hours on end, because y'all this is three hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a three-hour test in the dark and there's always one after lunch where you're like well, strong Coffee Company is what kept me going. Strong Coffee Company delivers premium instant blends for people who want convenience without sacrificing health. Their signature black instant coffee packs are 15 grams. That's more than a yogurt, amanda. 15 grams of protein, not Chobani. Chobani doesn't have 15 grams of protein in one yogurt.
Speaker 2:Is it only nine? I'm about to go grab a Chobani out of the fridge right now, but I swear to you it is definitely not 15.
Speaker 1:Is it nine? Okay, well, we may have another correction section. We'll have to go check our yogurts. But 15 grams, that's a. That's a for a coffee. Okay, we're going to check our yogurts. We'll get back to you on that, jury's out. But five grams of MCTs and 250 milligrams of adaptogens like ashwagandha, you're not going to find it in your yogurt. They give you sustained energy, focus and calm, without the jitters, and if you like it creamy, like you like your yogurts. Lattes are good. They add collagen, hyaluronic acid and healthy fats to organic Arabica coffee and, with eco-friendly practices and fast delivery, you can feel good about ordering Strong Coffee. It's going to fuel your day deliciously and powerfully. So elevate your coffee routine with Strong Coffee Company. Enjoy an exclusive discount with our promo code STAYSUSPICIOUS, that's S-T-A-Y-S-U-S-P-I-C-I-O-U-S, for 20% off your order at strongcoffeecompanycom. Amanda, yeah, what can our listeners expect to hear next week?
Speaker 2:Well, my friends, we are going to take a little venture on over into the pain medicine area. I got, I found a real doozy over there maybe a little, a little douchebag. I just like don't know how much I want to give away. It's bad, you guys oh no.
Speaker 1:Well, if you're talking to me about pain medicine and it's a bad case I'm assuming someone's going to be in pain and that makes me sad.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not exactly what I expected, so make sure you guys tune in, because it was one of those where I was like wait a second, what? And then when? I was researching, I found an article about like I can't even give too many figures- but I was like how does this even? Tie into this. And then I know now, ooh, but. But I was like how does this even tie into this? And then I know now, but you guys don't know now, so come back next Wednesday sounds like you went down a rabbit hole, which I know, and you guys.
Speaker 2:This is an hour and 17 minutes. It's finally an episode. That's long enough to get me to work. Yes, that's how long I drive one way to work anyway, love my job, so I'm gonna do it, but until then, don't miss a beat. Subscribe or following Doctoring the Truth wherever you enjoy your podcast. For sure that shock, intrigue and educate Trust, after all, is a delicate thing. You can test that. I'm trying to go fast, like at the end of a commercial, to like get you all on your way. But you can text us directly on our website at Doctoring the Truth, at Buzzsproutcom. Email us your medical mishaps at doctorinthetruthatgmail. Take the listener poll on YouTube, if you have not already. I did at doctorinthetruth on YouTube and be sure to follow us on Instagram at doctorinthetruthpodcast Facebook is just doctorinthetruth and don't forget to download, rate and review so we can be sure to bring you more content about my freaky, deaky pain med guy next week. Until then, stay safe and stay suspicious. Bye, I'm sure I get my yogurt.
